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The Army Should Rid Itself Of Symbols Of Treason

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  • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Thank you AR as I was typing on the fly and completely missed that one.

    Can you confirm for me that the Constitution of the Confederacy had no provisions for succeeding from their Union which would be the same for the real Constitution.
    Also that much of it's talk concerned slavery and wrote that no law shall be passed that would end or abolish slavery? Basically meaning in perpetuity.
    The Confederate Constitution upheld the institution of slavery, it prohibited the African slave trade. The concept of drafting and arming slaves was a recurring issue throughout the Confederacy’s existence, and it almost became a reality just before the fall of the rebel nation.

    In the final session of Congress in 1865, Davis proposed the federal government purchase 40,000 slaves for military work followed with some form of emancipation. In March, Congress voted to arm slaves, but offered no emancipation.

    General Order 14 resulted, which would immediately give freedom to slaves who served in the military. Recruiting and training black soldiers began.

    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Last, for all the blather about states rights. the Confederacy was a pretty centralized government?
    State governors found themselves continually in conflict with Davis about government overreach challenging their sacred states rights, especially federal conscription laws.
    Davis saw his authority repeatedly challenged, almost facing impeachment. Davis feuded regularly with Vice-President Stephens, bickered with generals, often had to reconstruct his cabinet.

    The Emancipation Proclamation confirmed their insistence that the war for the Union must become a war for freedom. From day one of the Confederacy was founded to protect and sustain the institution of slavery. The Confederacy killed more US Military than anyone. The Germans in two World Wars couldn't match the body count. The flag should be gone from public venues and memorials.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      Oh no. I thought about that but feel that it should defiantly be named after the US Army's Premiere Airborne Soldier. 1stLt Mike Sparks.

      We Should rename it Fort Michael Sparks,The US Army Center for Air Mech Strike Excellence
      Gunny,

      I mean this with all sincerity, Go Fuck Yourself.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
        Thank you AR as I was typing on the fly and completely missed that one.

        Can you confirm for me that the Constitution of the Confederacy had no provisions for succeeding from their Union which would be the same for the real Constitution. Also that much of it's talk concerned slavery and wrote that no law shall be passed that would end or abolish slavery? Basically meaning in perpetuity. Last, for all the blather about states rights. the Confederacy was a pretty centralized government?
        Regarding the Confederate Constitution....

        The closest I can find to anything regarding secession was the following:


        "The Confederate Constitution's Preamble including the phrase "each State acting in its sovereign and independent character" focuses the new Constitution on the rights of the individual States.

        The Preamble to the Confederate Constitution begins : "We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character..."

        The Confederate States gain several rights that the U.S. states did not have. For example, they gained the right to impeach federal judges and other federal officers if they worked or lived solely in their state."

        So no, secession was not allowed.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
          Sorry, but you are wrong. His stance is just cover to keep these things up in their states as they would never be voted out in a general election. He knows it and you know it. Treason, slavery, torture, and cruelty do not deserve to be memorialized nor to have their existence upended into a different story.

          I take it you must be the Millennial Right. You are concerned that the Left want to do a new Radical Reconstruction of history. I do believe the first radical reconstruction of history was the Lost Cause where the DAR and their likes rewrote the history of the South in a much nicer light than they truly deserved. Now the light is being turned back around on them to rewrite the book back to the truth.

          Oh, almost forgot. Flying the Confederate Flag in Alabama and Mississippi doesn't make those white citizens feel like idiots in the slightest. They are far more likely to say fvck you too.
          I don't think you need to do it in a general election or a referendum. You can always just have a governor decide one day "yup, I'm taking this down, try and stop me."
          Re: Rewriting history, the Lost Cause is a myth, but there's a damn good reason Lincoln tried to do a gentle, amicable reconstruction.

          Originally posted by astralis View Post
          GVChamp,



          "politically sustainable" is a function of power.

          IE, Reconstruction would have been significantly more sustainable had Lincoln lived instead of Andrew Johnson, whom sought to wreck Reconstruction. the Radical Republicans needed the support of the Unionist Republicans, whom mostly dissolved as an organization after the Union was saved.

          Lincoln was the unifying figure in the party.

          as it is, Reconstruction worked until roughly 1876, although significant political capital was wasted on intra-Republican fighting, again thanks to Johnson.

          for today's case, I find it's quite insightful indeed to connect some of the aspects of what BLM/millennial left is pushing for with Radical Republican Reconstruction. it's essentially to -complete- what was given up, which was the elevation of Black economic power in conjunction with Black political representation. Once "40 Acres and a Mule" was given up, Black political power in the South was essentially left to the mercies of a terrorist campaign.
          Well, if you are depending on Lincoln and Grant to keep stuff together....you don't have a particularly enduring political coalition! And to actually desegregate the South would require a generation or more of heavy union presence. That's a huge commitment! Even then, it's not at all clear that this ends up in peace and prosperity and not just KKK becoming the 19th century version of FARC that lasts for 50 years.

          A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing on Reconstruction these days. Not an accusation at you, personally, more at the Twitter feed.
          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

          Comment


          • GVChamp,

            Well, if you are depending on Lincoln and Grant to keep stuff together....you don't have a particularly enduring political coalition!
            of course. but a coalition that breaks apart in the 1880s or 1890s would have led to significantly different outcomes than one that broke down almost immediately post-war.

            And to actually desegregate the South would require a generation or more of heavy union presence. That's a huge commitment!
            yes, and as it was, the South got half a generation's worth.

            increasing Black economic power over a generation or two, though, would have had significant long-term political dividends for the Republicans.

            Republicans essentially ceded the South post-1876 as the previous Confederates were put back into the national fold. had Black economic and political power continued to be developed, at least half of the South would have been split because Black voters and their allies would have pulled almost exclusively for the Republicans.

            Democrats would essentially have turned into a regional Bourbon Democratic party vs a national party.

            not just KKK becoming the 19th century version of FARC that lasts for 50 years.
            i mean we got a low-level version of it anyways, what with the mass lynchings and the cross burnings.

            in any case, the South was damn lucky that Lincoln lasted as long as he did, and that Andrew Johnson was the replacement.

            had Hannibal Hamlin took over in 1864, the Radical Republicans would probably have spent the next five years post-war hanging every ex-Confederate leader they could lay their hands on.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dazed View Post
              The Confederate Constitution upheld the institution of slavery, it prohibited the African slave trade. The concept of drafting and arming slaves was a recurring issue throughout the Confederacy’s existence, and it almost became a reality just before the fall of the rebel nation.

              In the final session of Congress in 1865, Davis proposed the federal government purchase 40,000 slaves for military work followed with some form of emancipation. In March, Congress voted to arm slaves, but offered no emancipation.

              General Order 14 resulted, which would immediately give freedom to slaves who served in the military. Recruiting and training black soldiers began.
              Dazed,

              A battalion of Confederate Black Soldiers retreated with the Confederate Army from Richmond and were engaged about 4.5 miles NE of Saylor's Creek Battlefield on 6 APR 65.

              Those were the ONLY Confederates in CSA service. Anyone else you see touted as a CSA Black Soldier was a camp slave, teamster and/or body servant. Period. That is not just ny opinion...that was the opinion of the Confederate pension offices.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                Dazed,

                A battalion of Confederate Black Soldiers retreated with the Confederate Army from Richmond and were engaged about 4.5 miles NE of Saylor's Creek Battlefield on 6 APR 65.

                Those were the ONLY Confederates in CSA service. Anyone else you see touted as a CSA Black Soldier was a camp slave, teamster and/or body servant. Period. That is not just ny opinion...that was the opinion of the Confederate pension offices.
                AR,

                I agree with everything you saying.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                  How about Vernon Baker or Edward Carter from WWII?
                  Sorry, it's a running WAB joke. Sparky is the sole single advocate on the internet to raise M113 (of which he and only he calls the GAVIN in honour of LGen JM Gavin) airborne brigades, hence Air Mechanized Strike. Those of us who had interacted with him considers him a know-it-all-expert-wannabe. He's been so prolific that he paid for his own website arguing his point and spammed multiple combat veteran discussion sites pushing his ideas.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                    Sorry, it's a running WAB joke. Sparky is the sole single advocate on the internet to raise M113 (of which he and only he calls the GAVIN in honour of LGen JM Gavin) airborne brigades, hence Air Mechanized Strike. Those of us who had interacted with him considers him a know-it-all-expert-wannabe. He's been so prolific that he paid for his own website arguing his point and spammed multiple combat veteran discussion sites pushing his ideas.
                    Oh, an inside joke...

                    Comment


                    • Mississippi lawmakers vote to remove rebel emblem from flag

                      JACKSON, Miss. (AP) — Mississippi lawmakers voted Sunday to surrender the Confederate battle emblem from their state flag, triggering raucous applause and cheers more than a century after white supremacist legislators adopted the design a generation after the South lost the Civil War.

                      Mississippi's House and Senate voted in succession Sunday afternoon to retire the flag, each chamber drawing broad bipartisan support for the historic decision. Republican Gov. Tate Reeves has said he will sign the bill, and the state flag would lose its official status as soon as he signs the measure. He did not immediately signal when the signing would take place.

                      The state had faced mounting pressure to change its flag during the past month amid international protests against racial injustice in the United States. Cheering and applause erupted as lawmakers hugged each other in the Senate with final passage. Even those on the opposite side of the issue also hugged as an emotional day of debate drew to a close. Bells also could be heard ringing in the state capital city as passage of the measure was announced.

                      A commission would design a new flag that cannot include the Confederate symbol and that must have the words “In God We Trust.” Voters will be asked to approve the new design in the Nov. 3 election. If they reject it, the commission will set a different design using the same guidelines, and that would be sent to voters later.

                      Mississippi has a 38% Black population — and the last state flag that incorporates the emblem that’s widely seen as racist.

                      Republican House Speaker Philip Gunn, who is white, has pushed for five years to change the flag, saying that the Confederate symbol is offensive. The House passed the bill 91-23 Sunday afternoon, and the Senate passed it 37-14 later.
                      _________________

                      155 years later....

                      Great job joining the rest of the country there Mississippi, welcome to the year 2020.
                      Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        Mississippi lawmakers vote to remove rebel emblem from flag_________________

                        155 years later....

                        Great job joining the rest of the country there Mississippi, welcome to the year 2020.
                        Now let's look at Missouri's....

                        And Secretary McCarthy, you are on the clock....
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          Now let's look at Missouri's....

                          And Secretary McCarthy, you are on the clock....
                          Por que?

                          Comment


                          • Is there something wrong with Missouri's flag, other than it being butt ugly?
                            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                            Comment


                            • Geebus....I am getting old!!!!

                              I was reading a report from one of my guys at Fort Leonard Woods, MO. right before posting. Yikes!

                              I meant Georgia!

                              My Gawd!!!

                              Georgia still has the Bars of the Stars and Bar of the First National Confederate Flag.

                              Every flag (except for a short period for 2 years) since 1879 has specifically carried those stripes to commemorate the Confederacy...it was designed by Herman Perry,a state senator who had been a CSA Colonel.

                              They need to go to the unofficial blue with state seal prior to the war.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                                Geebus....I am getting old!!!!

                                I was reading a report from one of my guys at Fort Leonard Woods, MO. right before posting. Yikes!

                                I meant Georgia!

                                My Gawd!!!

                                Georgia still has the Bars of the Stars and Bar of the First National Confederate Flag.

                                Every flag (except for a short period for 2 years) since 1879 has specifically carried those stripes to commemorate the Confederacy...it was designed by Herman Perry,a state senator who had been a CSA Colonel.

                                They need to go to the unofficial blue with state seal prior to the war.
                                Pretty sure that Florida's qualifies as well, the "X" of the Confederate Navy Flag that was bastardized with the Battle Flag
                                Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

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