The Army Should Rid Itself Of Symbols Of Treason

[Officer of Engineers]

Nope.Context.And with what issue REALLY are you dealing?

You know,CW ended only 155 years ago.Those politics and symbols are just history.

Their house. Their rules. The best we outsiders can do is to understand, if not appreciate, their decisions and delimas.

[Officer of Engineers]

It's not as if these Confederate symbols were incorporated into state flags, seals, and other state symbols purely for historical reasons. The main reason, I believe, was to send a message, and not a good one.

I would've thought of defiance, a nose thumbing to the north - "we're not totally done."

[Officer of Engineers]

Then tell me all about Longstreet and what he did to specifically to help the Union. Most of his post war history is more of "go along, to get along" than anything else.

I would've thought being shot while leading black troops against white insurrectionists would have said how much he was doing.

I know nothing of what he truly thought inside his head but he was astute enough to realize working with the North was far better than working against it and it served him well. In the end the North held him in high regard and the South despised him.

Wasn't his memoirs published? He thought very little of postwar revisionism. At least according to his memoirs.

[astralis]

I would've thought of defiance, a nose thumbing to the north - "we're not totally done."

many of the monuments were erected not immediately post-war, but in two spurts -- the early 1900s and the late 1950s.

the first corresponds with the push to enact Jim Crow laws following an organized terror campaign to chase Reconstruction-era black politicians and their white Republican allies out of the South.

the second corresponds with opposition to the Civil Rights movement and desegregation.

the monuments have -always- been about political power and showing the population whom was boss. it's never "just history".

[tbm3fan]

NAS Moffet Field now known as Moffett Federal Airfield, in the SF Bay area.

Yeah, I was just talking about that one as a friend of mine, Navy Warrant Officer, was restoring a P-3 Orion over there. Didn't even put 2 and 2 together.

Air Fields, as compared to Naval Bases (as in ships), didn't register but then also flying came some ways after the Civil War so they wouldn't be in the mix.

However, as for ships, I was visiting my nephew (Saturday) who is the son of my recently passed away sister who was taking care of our mother. It was her 88 birthday. My nephew spent six years in the Navy as a nuke and his deployment was on the Stennis. My nephew is also half white/half black. So I asked him about a ship named after a guy like Stennis. Turns out Stennis didn't mean much to him (well he was aware of segregation), where from, years alive, and why the ship was named after him. He is a very smart guy but the name, itself, is not on his radar. Makes me wonder how many others are like that concerning a name. I would suspect few know much if anything about Bragg much less his first name.

[tbm3fan]

Nope.Context.And with what issue REALLY are you dealing?

You know,CW ended only 155 years ago.Those politics and symbols are just history.

Man, you are clueless aren't you. Remember I said listen rather than pontificate. Yet since you are so smart can you tell me when slavery really ended. This ought to be good being an extremely nuanced question.

[tbm3fan]

Nope.Context.And with what issue REALLY are you dealing?

You know,CW ended only 155 years ago.Those politics and symbols are just history.

Below is the original state flag of Mississippi until 1865. In 1894 it was modified by white supremacists in the state legislature to what we see today. The meaning had not changed with time.

[Officer of Engineers]

Yeah, I was just talking about that one as a friend of mine, Navy Warrant Officer, was restoring a P-3 Orion over there. Didn't even put 2 and 2 together.

Air Fields, as compared to Naval Bases (as in ships), didn't register but then also flying came some ways after the Civil War so they wouldn't be in the mix.

However, as for ships, I was visiting my nephew (Saturday) who is the son of my recently passed away sister who was taking care of our mother. It was her 88 birthday. My nephew spent six years in the Navy as a nuke and his deployment was on the Stennis. My nephew is also half white/half black. So I asked him about a ship named after a guy like Stennis. Turns out Stennis didn't mean much to him (well he was aware of segregation), where from, years alive, and why the ship was named after him. He is a very smart guy but the name, itself, is not on his radar. Makes me wonder how many others are like that concerning a name. I would suspect few know much if anything about Bragg much less his first name.

Even if they did know and objected to the name, it would be very low on the list of priorities, especially in the last few years. You don't have much time to think about the name Bragg, not when you're getting ready for Iraq or Afghanistan. Even if you did not have those missions lined up, you're too worried about doing your job and career path. Bitching about a name ain't going to help you with either.

The irony here is that your nephew has done the USS STENNIS proud. A hell of a lot good Black Men passed through those Confderate stations with distinction, an irony that I relish.

[Albany Rifles]

Sir,point taken,but Turner Ashby and Forrest do deserve plenty of credit.Ashby for screening Jackson,recon and counter recon(though not perfect).
As for Forrest,the Union got lucky the Confederacy did not used his mobile warfare capabilities to its fullest.
Having a huge space at its disposal and failing to do a Russia on Napoleon always struck me as a huge failure of thinking according to (military) fashion.

1. Again, Ashby was operating against inferior enemy forces and was able to take advantage of poorly defined unnatural geographic boundaries set by the Union.

2. Forrest operated against much the same for much of the war. But for his massacres the US Army, rightly, refuses to take lessons from him. We had plenty to take from our own successes. And in the end, he lost.

[Albany Rifles]

Well,you guys started a massive trolling campaign with this charade.For 100 plus years serious people did serious things at Bragg.Never heard black paratroopers complaining about it.Never heard any infantryman complaining about Benning either.But all of a sudden sleep is lost because of that.
Plus,the freedom fighters are joining the likes of Taliban and ISIS with their statues destruction.That in itself is no big deal.Idiots like those mobs are prone to that.What should be to some shocking is seeing otherwise intelligent and reasonable people supporting this idiocy.Is not actially shocking because thecsame characters historically did nothing but finding excuses both for the villains and their own inaction.
FFS,Seattle has statues of Lenin.Veterans of Korea and Vietnam still don’t suffer heart attacks because of that.

Your institutions ban books,movies,unperson historical characters and you stand idle,just because.
That will surely solve the problems of the black community.Keep up.Just don’t be too surprised if Lee will get a statue in Seattle in 15 years.Because experience shows that banning culture is never the end,but the start.Was the same in ancient China,modern China,Russia,Spain and a few dozens more places.

Just cause you didn't hear it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It is no charade. I have heard it many times over my 42 year affiliation with the United States Army.

[Albany Rifles]

One final point about this AMERICAN issue and then I am done.

The so called Confederate States of America, never recognized as legitimate by any nation on earth, existed for 4 years and 3 days. Southern Culture has existed for 401 years, measuring from Jamestown onward (ignoring Florida for right now).

To put it in context, do you know what lasted longer than the Confederacy?

My undergraduate career and my first marriage.

[tbm3fan]

Even if they did know and objected to the name, it would be very low on the list of priorities, especially in the last few years. You don't have much time to think about the name Bragg, not when you're getting ready for Iraq or Afghanistan. Even if you did not have those missions lined up, you're too worried about doing your job and career path. Bitching about a name ain't going to help you with either.

The irony here is that your nephew has done the USS STENNIS proud. A hell of a lot good Black Men passed through those Confderate stations with distinction, an irony that I relish.

That was my point. The civilian powers that be say changing the names would upset all those soldiers who trained there and called it their base. As my nephew showed the name of the base, and all it entailed, was far from their mind. I can imagine most training at the base might have thought about when they can get away from this base much like my brother thought during training at NTC, San Diego.

From listening to others it seems the feelings for the base they trained at or were stationed at grow fonder as they age. By 70 it could have been paradise..............................

[Officer of Engineers]

From listening to others it seems the feelings for the base they trained at or were stationed at grow fonder as they age. By 70 it could have been paradise..............................

No, not paradise BUT a freaking source of tough pride. What, you've got trucked to the range? We marched in full winter gear during SUMMER! You're shooting that freaking .22? We had REAL rifles with REAL MACHINE GUN ROUNDS (7.62NATO). Battle armour? We had battle dress. That was it!

Sort of you kids are lucky kind a thing. Our internet was the library. Our air condition school bus was a 5 mile walk. We didn't get snow days. We walked to school in 30 foot snow - barefoot.

When did I became my dad?

[astralis]

our good col ain't too bad, he's only in the middle of the dinosaur rankings!

[tbm3fan]

That's pretty funny. Hey, Dad...

I bet GG is glad he wasn't a new Marine fighting the Japanese back then