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The Army Should Rid Itself Of Symbols Of Treason

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  • #76
    Your Vox Man Yglesias is throwing out Straussian posts indicating that the Vocal Left, while still small, is dramatically stronger than it used to be and getting exponentially stronger.

    I don't have a crystal ball, but I do know that based on what we have collectively seen in the last 15 years, none of us should be outright ruling out possibilities 15 years from now. Just for starters, you've seen 2 once-a-century depressions. In 15 years.
    sure, we can even assume worst-case scenarios-- which again, I don't think will happen because Dem political coalition and incentives are different from GOP coalition and incentives.

    what then? is a rampant "cancel culture" worse than conservatives being co-opted by the Lost Cause folks, III%, and Q -right now-?

    last year, members of the Maine GOP argued against the Ballad of the 20th Maine as the state song, because they were afraid it would hurt the feelings of Southerners. hell, the Lost Cause folks are the original "cancel culture" -- cancelling out Grant, cancelling out the role of slavery; the list goes on.

    is the elimination of statues of Jeff Davis or, gasp, Christopher Columbus (whom never landed in the US of A anyways) worse than the declaration, during a pandemic, that masks are a mind control device for sheeple, or that Bill Gates is going to use a COVID vaccine to implant GPS devices?
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #77
      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      Stalin I can see. He beaten Hitler. But Mao? Mao's major death tolls was through incompetence and his self delusion of grandeur. Hitler imposed massive deaths through policy. Hitler would have eaten Mao for breakfrast.
      I wasn't really thinking about motivation or method. Just the end result. In that regard, Hitler was rookie compared to the other two.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
        The argument is the same right? Apparently the statues are needed because otherwise you are erasing history and culture. Apparently the only way people remember history is with statues.
        Not really. Hitler in the common imagination is uniquely evil. There's a really good discussion about "who was the embodiment of evil before Hitler" and the answer is Pharaoh. That's pretty much how uniquely evil Hitler is treated. I don't think we gain much from trying to put everyone in "History's Greatest Monster" bucket.

        Originally posted by astralis View Post
        sure, we can even assume worst-case scenarios-- which again, I don't think will happen because Dem political coalition and incentives are different from GOP coalition and incentives.

        what then? is a rampant "cancel culture" worse than conservatives being co-opted by the Lost Cause folks, III%, and Q -right now-?

        last year, members of the Maine GOP argued against the Ballad of the 20th Maine as the state song, because they were afraid it would hurt the feelings of Southerners. hell, the Lost Cause folks are the original "cancel culture" -- cancelling out Grant, cancelling out the role of slavery; the list goes on.

        is the elimination of statues of Jeff Davis or, gasp, Christopher Columbus (whom never landed in the US of A anyways) worse than the declaration, during a pandemic, that masks are a mind control device for sheeple, or that Bill Gates is going to use a COVID vaccine to implant GPS devices?
        This isn't just crazy right-wingers talking about cancel culture. It's not even just Barrack Obama talking about campus cultures not living up to their values. It's left-of-center alternative journalists who think a lot of people are going off the deep end, in the semi-Real World.
        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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        • #79
          Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
          Well, yeah, it's definitely a culture, and an identity. That's why it is being attacked. And understandably this thread STARTED as being about the army, but obviously beyond it now...I am not Southern and do not really have a dog in the hunt or a say in what goes into the Southern identity.

          I am from the south. Southern Identity is bullshit. Its an excuse to discriminate against people all the while talking about how respectful and hard working we are. (If it wasn't for those damn Yankees trying to ruin everything)

          Never understood why people around me want to fly a traitor flag and give it, and what it stands for, as much respect as the US flag. These same people bitch about disrespecting the US flag by kneeling and yet are too stupid to realize that they do even worse by flying the confederate battle flag. The southern states are poor because we think working hard is better than getting educated. Educated people are seen as "Uppity" Thats southern identity.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
            Not really. Hitler in the common imagination is uniquely evil. There's a really good discussion about "who was the embodiment of evil before Hitler" and the answer is Pharaoh. That's pretty much how uniquely evil Hitler is treated. I don't think we gain much from trying to put everyone in "History's Greatest Monster" bucket.
            Please ask a black man from the south what he thinks of Jefferson Davis and the confederacy. The confederate flag is to Black Americans as the Nazi flag is to Jews. The fact that they are not viewed as evil and have their statues in prominent locations in southern cities is exactly the problem. Southerners have tried to whitewash their crimes with the Lost Cause and Southern Pride narrative. That needs to be called out for the absolute BS that it is. Pulling down the statues is part of that.
            Last edited by Firestorm; 12 Jun 20,, 22:06.

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            • #81
              Click image for larger version  Name:	WENeugQ.jpg Views:	2 Size:	226.7 KB ID:	1478996
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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              • #82
                Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                Statues are to memorialize. That is their only purpose.

                Auschwitz is not a monument anymore than Gettysburg. It is a place, a location, hallowed ground so to speak. One goes to reflect on the evil man has inflicted upon man. I've been to Omaha Beach, Gettysburg, Auschwitz and Dachau. What I felt crossing through the gates were the ghosts of people who fought or were caught there and died. Very hard to put into words but definitely a very different feeling from what I feel looking at a statue.

                Do more walking of hallowed ground and less looking at statues.
                I have walked on 'hallowed ground' since 2013 more or less because Ukraine is a war site still. But I agree with your point and did enjoy people toppling Lenin's back then - though I did not take any part in it of course ;).

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                  I wasn't really thinking about motivation or method. Just the end result. In that regard, Hitler was rookie compared to the other two.
                  That's just it. Hitler and Stalin intended to kill. Mao did not. If you told all three about the people who died under them, Stalin and Hitler would have said, "Yes, I wanted to do that." Mao would have said, "Oopps, Sorry, my bad."

                  Mao's every intention was to make China and the Chinese people great under his leadership. He absolutely had no clue that his actions would have lead to so many deaths.
                  Chimo

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                    There's a really good discussion about "who was the embodiment of evil before Hitler" and the answer is Pharaoh. That's pretty much how uniquely evil Hitler is treated.
                    Really? I would have put Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan above the Pharaoh. Timur also put any Eygptian to shame but he barely touched Europe, so it can be forgiven the West knew little of him. In fact, I say old Genghis was worst than Hitler. Genghis won.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Jun 20,, 00:33.
                    Chimo

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Mihais View Post

                      The obtusity is this.Grant,Lincoln and the rest understood that pushing it too hard meant other hundreds of thousands of more deaths,if the conventional war developed into an insurgency.The likes of Lee and Longstreet understood it as well and worked the rest of their lives to strengthen the American Union.

                      Do tell since you are an expert on Americana. Tell me all about what Lee did after the war that strengthened the Union before he died 5 years after the Civil War ends. Then tell me all about Longstreet and what he did to specifically to help the Union. Most of his post war history is more of "go along, to get along" than anything else. I know nothing of what he truly thought inside his head but he was astute enough to realize working with the North was far better than working against it and it served him well. In the end the North held him in high regard and the South despised him.
                      Last edited by tbm3fan; 13 Jun 20,, 00:19.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        Agreed. And that's what we have museums and such for.

                        U.S. Army installations should commemorate men contributed to the history/legacy of the United States Army AND who stayed loyal to the United States of America.

                        Change Fort Lee to Fort Grant.

                        Change Fort Hood to Fort Sheridan.

                        Change Fort Bragg to Fort Sherman.
                        I was just thinking about the Navy. They have no installations that are named after people and they certainly have a fair amount of heros, From John Paul Jones onward. They are all named after their location pretty much.

                        The Army names after people and not locations. Of course this predates me by 200 years but nonetheless curious.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                          Not really. Hitler in the common imagination is uniquely evil. There's a really good discussion about "who was the embodiment of evil before Hitler" and the answer is Pharaoh.
                          Pharoah is a title not a name and I would argue that the early Macedonian Pharoahs (the Ptolemies) were wise and 'liberated' among their age; the Great Library of Alexandria was an intentional policy.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                            I was just thinking about the Navy. They have no installations that are named after people and they certainly have a fair amount of heros, From John Paul Jones onward. They are all named after their location pretty much.

                            The Army names after people and not locations. Of course this predates me by 200 years but nonetheless curious.
                            The Marine Corps splits the difference and names after both. Example, We have Cherry Point Air Station and Camp Lejeune. Don't know for sure but I think we have the only base named for a African American. Camp Johnson

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                            • #89
                              Mao would have said, "Oopps, Sorry, my bad."
                              true, Mao was more of a "can't make omelets without breaking eggs" sort of guy.

                              but regardless, his omelet still took millions of eggs. and of those millions, the ones he very much deliberately wanted to break numbered in at -least- the hundreds of thousands.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                Really? I would have put Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan above the Pharaoh. Timur also put any Eygptian to shame but he barely touched Europe, so it can be forgiven the West knew little of him. In fact, I say old Genghis was worst than Hitler. Genghis won.
                                Is about personification of evil,not really about actually being top evil.
                                Those who know don't speak
                                He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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