The Army Should Rid Itself Of Symbols Of Treason

[Albany Rifles]

I understand and appreciate your revulsion. My acknowledgement is done via that of a non-American and therefore I have no dog in this fight. I just see very little difference with those naming vs what happened to the Goths under the Romans, Greeks/Persians under Alexander, India under Great Britain.

I appreciate your revulsion.

Thanks Colonel.

I know and respect you well enough to know you weren't trolling and appreciate your well formed views are based on a long understanding of Western Doctrinal development.

I mean we shared the Viewing of the Piranha Tank after all!

[TopHatter]

US Marines order Confederate flag to be removed from public display

The US Marine Corps has officially ordered the removal of the Confederate battle flag from public display on its bases and offices, citing the flag's use by racist groups as a "threat to our core values".

In a statement on 5 June, the service branch said: "The Confederate battle flag has all too often been co-opted by violent extremist and racist groups whose divisive beliefs have no place in our Corps."

"Our history as a nation, and events like the violence in Charlottesville in 2017, highlight the divisiveness the use of the Confederate battle flag," waved by branches of the secessionist Confederate States Army during the US Civil War.

In an April memo outlining his intent to ban public display of the flag, Marine Corps commandant Gen David Berger said he has "focused solely on building a uniquely capable war-fighting team whose members come from all walks of life and must learn to operate side-by-side" and argued that the symbol "has shown it has the power to inflame feelings of division" and must be removed.

"I am mindful that many people believe that flag to be a symbol of heritage or regional pride," he said. "But I am also mindful of the feelings of pain and rejection of those who inherited the cultural memory and present effects of the scourge of slavery in our country."

Its removal follows a revived movement to take down symbols of the Civil War in public spaces across the US, from flag displays outside statehouses to the removal of Jim Crow-era monuments to the Lost Cause and leaders from the slavery-supporting Confederacy.

Following the Memorial Day killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis police custody, protesters have struck at statues and buildings across the US erected in the wake of the Confederacy's defeat, prompting several states to consider their removal after they were tagged with "Black Lives Matter" graffiti.

Virginia Governor Ralph Northam announced plans to begin removing monuments from the state's capital, and Randall Woodfin, mayor of Birmingham, Alabama, says he has received death threats after removing a Confederate Soldiers and Sailors monument.

In 2017, New Orleans was among the first cities to begin removing Jim Crow- and Confederate-era monuments, including statues of General Robert E Lee and Confederate president Jefferson Davis as well as an obelisk commemorating a white supremacist uprising that took place a decade after the Civil War. Demonstrators supporting their removal clashed with white supremacist groups for several weeks as crews worked overnight to take the statues off their pedestals. Officials there are now considering renaming street names that honour Confederate leaders.

The Marine Corps order doesn't apply to places where the flag is "not the main focus" of the display, including art and educational use.

It bans the flag from bumper stickers, mugs, clothing, posters and similar displays, as well as on all naval vessels, aircraft, government vehicles, offices and common areas, including recruitment centres.

The order from Marine Corps staff director Lt Gen John J Broadmeadow exempts state flags that incorporate the flag (such as Mississippi's), license plates, Confederate grave sites, and other locations where "commanders are expected to apply their best judgment informed by the spirit and intent" of the order.
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Another step forward

[looking4NSFS]

As time moves inexorably, inevitably to the right (the right as in a time line, not politics) the actions/thoughts of the people before us will become harder and harder to understand. Just as the society of our future will struggle to understand some of our actions. A completely nonpolitical example would be hygiene thru the ages. It gives a person the willies to read about what was acceptable during the colonial era, and we can be thankful that we have moved beyond those practices and abandoned them as, at best, non-productive.

From the POV of 1942 politics, the body politic seemingly agreed that Ft Hood TX should be named after confederate general John Bell Hood. (This post is not the place to discuss if Hoods actions would garner that honor. I tend towards the line of thought that he was an acceptable Brigade and Division commander of the time, but failed as the General in charge of the Army of Tennessee.)

This same process named many schools after George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, and there is an active ongoing effort to associate these Presidents with Confederate leaders and remove/change the names as well. (see: https://atlantablackstar.com/2015/07...ng-presidents/ )

So we, as a collective, have to figure out if it is time to abandon these names because the times have indeed changed. Who stays and who goes? Is there a difference between Fort Hood and Thomas Jefferson High School? Is there a difference between the man of his time Thomas Jefferson, principle author of the Declaration of Independence….. and a slave owner. And another man of his time, confederate general John Hood?

No answers here right now, just the questions. Over time, the decision will be made.

As to Confederate flag removal from public display….. it is time. Put it in the museum and place a placard explaining what it was, in the context of the time, so it is not forgotten. We are tearing ourselves apart as a nation over an object that was the symbol of a defeated system 150 plus years ago. A defeated system that our political leaders of the time (Grant/Lee) found the wisdom to put behind them so the Nation could move forward.

[Albany Rifles]

^^^^

This!

(Though I will quibble about Lee postwar...)

[tbm3fan]

As to Confederate flag removal from public display….. it is time. Put it in the museum and place a placard explaining what it was, in the context of the time, so it is not forgotten. We are tearing ourselves apart as a nation over an object that was the symbol of a defeated system 150 plus years ago. A defeated system that our political leaders of the time (Grant/Lee) found the wisdom to put behind them so the Nation could move forward.

I never understood early on in life why the Confederate Flag was such a big deal for the South after losing. A big deal 98 years after the war. Then I started paying attention to history and reading books about it particularly WWII since my father was in it. I was 8. I came to the conclusion that what the German swastika is to Jews is what the Confederate Flag is to Blacks. Both used to intimidate long after their point in time. That much is clear and no doubt why Germany does not permit such a thing anymore. Yet we had the KKK riding with the flag which is all telling. Hell we had good ole boys (I love that term sounds like code) in a show called the Dukes of Hazzard driving around in the General Lee with a Confederate Flag painted on the roof for 6 years between 1979-85.

Yeah, doesn't mean a thing so move along and don't pay no attention you-all.

[TopHatter]

Army reverses course, will consider renaming bases named for Confederate leaders

Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy is now "open" to renaming the service's 10 bases and facilities that are named after Confederate leaders, an Army spokesperson told POLITICO, in a reversal of the service's previous position.

"The Secretary of the Army is open to a bipartisan discussion on the topic," Army spokesperson Col. Sunset Belinsky said Monday.

The recent uproar over the killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police drove McCarthy’s reversal, one Army official said.

The events of the past two weeks “made us start looking more at ourselves and the things that we do and how that is communicated to the force as well as the American public,” the official said.

As recently as February, the Army said the service had no plans to rename the facilities, following the Marine Corps' announcement that it would ban images of Confederate flags from its installations.

An Army spokesperson told Task & Purpose in February that the Army has a "tradition" of naming installations and streets after "historical figures of military significance," including both Union and Confederate leaders.

Prior to Floyd's death, the service was already under pressure to rename some of its best-known installations, including Fort Bragg, N.C., after a New York Times editorial accused the military of "celebrating White supremacists." For example, confederate general Braxton Bragg was a major slave-owner and is largely considered to be one of the most incompetent generals of the Civil War.

The Army faces an uphill battle in renaming some or all of its 10 installations that honor Confederate military commanders. For years, previous calls for change have gone unheeded, as officials sought to dismiss concerns by arguing the bases were named to celebrate American soldiers and that renaming them would upend tradition.

In the aftermath of violent clashes in Charlottesville, Va., over removing the town's statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee in 2017, lawmakers called on the Army to rename two streets at Fort Hamilton, N.Y., that were named after Lee and Stonewall Jackson. The Army refused, saying that changing the street names would be "controversial and divisive."

The nine other Army bases in question, all in southern states, are: Forts Benning and Gordon in Georgia; Forts Pickett, A.P. Hill and Lee in Va.; Fort Polk and Camp Beauregard in Louisiana; Fort Hood, Texas; and Fort Rucker, Ala.

The unrest sweeping the country over racial injustice comes as incidents of white nationalism within the ranks appear to be on the rise. A 2019 Military Times survey found that more than a third of troops who responded have seen evidence of white supremacist and racist ideologies in the military, a significant increase from the year before, when only 22 percent reported the same.

McCarthy signaled his evolving views in a message delivered to the force last week in response to the protests. Following other senior military leaders who issued similar messages, McCarthy, Army Chief of Staff Gen. James McConville and Army Sergeant Major Michael Grinston acknowledged the service's struggle with racism and pledged to do better.

"Over the past week, the country has suffered an explosion of frustration over the racial divisions that still plague us as Americans. And because your Army is a reflection of American society, those divisions live in the Army as well. We feel the frustration and anger," they wrote. "We need to work harder to earn the trust of mothers and fathers who hesitate to hand their sons and daughters into our care." Link
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[looking4NSFS]

This attached article is from the Army Times, it covers the same ground as TopHatters post above but with a little more detail. The comments section gives an idea how divisive this effort will be. The idea of renaming after Medal of Honor awardees seems the "safest" though even that will cause some sort of s_it storm no doubt. If this path is taken, it will lead to efforts for other changes. One example would be the USS Stennis. Although a staunch supporter of the Navy, he was a noted segregationist. That he was succeeded by Robert Byrd as the President pro tempore of the Senate has its own irony. (And preceeded by Strom Thurmond, but I digress........)

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...20Bird%20Brief

[Albany Rifles]

This attached article is from the Army Times, it covers the same ground as TopHatters post above but with a little more detail. The comments section gives an idea how divisive this effort will be. The idea of renaming after Medal of Honor awardees seems the "safest" though even that will cause some sort of s_it storm no doubt. If this path is taken, it will lead to efforts for other changes. One example would be the USS Stennis. Although a staunch supporter of the Navy, he was a noted segregationist. That he was succeeded by Robert Byrd as the President pro tempore of the Senate has its own irony. (And preceeded by Strom Thurmond, but I digress........)

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...20Bird%20Brief

If folks are butt hurt, screw them. Long past time.

Open a damn book and learn why the posts were named those names in light of the times it happened.

[Officer of Engineers]

Times like these makes me appreciate the Royal Regiment System. Make the decision. Execute it. Ignore the cry babies. And don't whine when the cry babies make your life miserable. The disbanding of the Canadian Airbone Regiment comes to mind.

Don't explain. Don't complain.

[tbm3fan]

If folks are butt hurt, screw them. Long past time.

Open a damn book and learn why the posts were named those names in light of the times it happened.

I see that an Army poll says that 79% don't favor changing the names. Wow! Exactly who are the other 21%? If it is Black members then I see a divide.

The stated purpose for doing it back then was reconciliation for one. Hmm, what about reconciliation today?

These generals (note I use lower case when you don't deserve respect) were in open rebellion against the United States. Some may have been West Point graduates like Lee which means they forsake their oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Yet they get honored. I don't know about others but when someone lets me down on a big issue, such as this, I never ever have full trust in them again. Giving them a pardon doesn't wipe the books clean to me.

Some Army members say these guys are a part of battalion, regimental, and division history. How so given they were Confederates? I would think one's history would comprise of those members who served honorably and with distinction in the U.S. Army. These men didn't serve with distinction or honor as they turned their backs on the U.S. Army. I see them as traitors and have a hard time how they could be seen as any different by others. You want to pardon them? Fine, just make it a dishonorable discharge/pardon.

So just change the damn names and be done. These men didn't contribute anything to the history/legacy of the United States Army. What they did was stain their names and there should be no honor in that.

[Officer of Engineers]

So just change the damn names and be done. These men didn't contribute anything to the history/legacy of the United States Army. What they did was stain their names and there should be no honor in that.

I strongly disagree. The US Army was the most powerful military in the world after the ACW. A lot of what was hard learned by both sides are still in use today; especially secured rail LOCs. Stuart wrote the book on force reccee behind enemy lines.

The ACW produced a force so experienced that a bunch of veteran Irish drunks kicked ass against British regulars.

Just as the Romans detested Hannibal, the South's contributions to American military thought cannot and must not be dismissed. Trench warfare comes to mind.

This is not to say to not change names but it is also extremely important not to forget how those lessons came about. After all, there is no town in Italy named Hannibal.

[TopHatter]

I strongly disagree. The US Army was the most powerful military in the world after the ACW. A lot of what was hard learned by both sides are still in use today; especially secured rail LOCs. Stuart wrote the book on force reccee behind enemy lines.

The ACW produced a force so experienced that a bunch of veteran Irish drunks kicked ass against British regulars.

Just as the Romans detested Hannibal, the South's contributions to American military thought cannot and must not be dismissed. Trench warfare comes to mind.

This is not to say to not change names but it is also extremely important not to forget how those lessons came about. After all, there is no town in Italy named Hannibal.

Agreed. And that's what we have museums and such for.

U.S. Army installations should commemorate men contributed to the history/legacy of the United States Army AND who stayed loyal to the United States of America.

Change Fort Lee to Fort Grant.

Change Fort Hood to Fort Sheridan.

Change Fort Bragg to Fort Sherman.

[TopHatter]

Trump: No Change At Bases Named For Confederate Officers

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump on Wednesday said his administration will “not even consider” changing the name of any of the 10 Army bases that are named for Confederate Army officers. Two days earlier, Defense Secretary Mark Esper indicated that he was open to a broad discussion of such changes.

“These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom,” Trump wrote. “The United States of America trained and deployed our HEROES on these Hallowed Grounds, and won two World Wars. Therefore, my Administration will not even consider the renaming of these Magnificent and Fabled Military Installations.”

Name changes have not been proposed by the Army or the Pentagon, but on Monday, Esper and Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy indicated in response to questions from reporters that they were “open to a bipartisan discussion” of renaming bases such as Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Benning in Georgia.

Supporters of disassociating military bases from Confederate Army officers argue that they represent the racism and divisiveness of the Civil War era and glorify men who fought against the United States.

To amplify Trump's view, his press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, read his tweets to reporters in the White House briefing room. She said he is “fervently” opposed to changing the base names and believes that doing so would amount to “complete disrespect” for soldiers who trained there over the years.

The possibility of renaming the bases, McEnany said, is “an absolute non-starter” for Trump.

If Congress were to pass legislation requiring name changes, he would not sign it, she said.

The U.S. military recently began rethinking its traditional connection to Confederate Army symbols, including the Army base names, mindful of their divisiveness at a time the nation is wrestling with questions of race after the death of George Floyd in police hands. The Navy and the Marine Corps are now banning public displays of the Confederate Army battle flag on their installations, casting their decision as necessary to preserve cohesion within the ranks.

Ten major Army installations are named for Confederate Army officers, mostly senior generals, including Robert E. Lee. Among the 10 is Fort Benning, the namesake of Confederate Army Gen. Henry L. Benning, who was a leader of Georgia's secessionist movement and an advocate of preserving slavery. Others are in Virginia, North Carolina, Alabama, Texas and Louisiana. The naming was done mostly after World War I and in the 1940s, in some cases as gestures of conciliation to the South.

Few voices in the military are openly defending the link to Confederate symbols, but some of the bases named for Confederate officers are legendary in their own right. Fort Bragg, for example, is home to some of the Army's most elite forces. Any decision to change the name at Bragg or other bases likely would involve consulting with officials from the affected states and localities.

Paul Eaton, a retired two-star Army general and a former commanding general of Fort Benning, said Trump's statements go against ideals the Army stands for.

“Today, Donald Trump made it official. Rather than move this nation further away from institutionalized racism, he believes we should cling to it and its heritage, by keeping the names of racist traitors on the gates of our military bases,” Eaton said.

Peter Mansoor, a retired Army colonel and veteran of the Iraq war, said in an email exchange that renaming these bases is long overdue.

“Most serving soldiers know little about the history behind the Confederate leaders for whom these bases are named, or the political deals that caused them to be honored in this fashion,” he said. “There might be some pushback from a small segment of soldiers from the South, but this is what we like to call a ‘teachable moment.’ Now is the time to finally bring about a change that will speak volumes as to what the U.S. Army stands for.”

David Petraeus, a retired four-star Army general, said the renaming move, which he supports, amounts to a “war of memory,” and that before deciding to rename bases like Fort Bragg, where he served with the 82nd Airborne Division, the Army must be ready to follow its own procedures for such change.

“The irony of training at bases named for those who took up arms against the United States, and for the right to enslave others, is inescapable to anyone paying attention," Petraeus wrote in an essay published Tuesday by The Atlantic. “Now, belatedly, is the moment for us to pay such attention.”

Fort Bragg was named for Braxton Bragg, a native North Carolinian and Confederate general with a reputation for bravery and mediocre leadership. His forces were defeated at the Battle of Chattanooga in November 1863.
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Shocking. Utterly shocking. Who would've imagined that Trump was so enamored with the Confederacy.

[tbm3fan]

“These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom,”

Excuse me and I thought Grant won. I'll be damned. I need to pay closer attention in history class. Maybe I can audit my son's sixth grade history class.

[Bigfella]

“These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom,”

Excuse me and I thought Grant won. I'll be damned. I need to pay closer attention in history class. Maybe I can audit my son's sixth grade history class.

So you didn't get taught about John Bell Hood's glorious victories at Franklin & Nashville, when the foolish General Thomas pointlessly smashed his army against Confederate defences until it was all but destroyed?

Nothing says 'freedom, victory & winning' like a guy who suffered one of the biggest defeats of the war in the name of being able to own other humans as if they were cattle. Sad thing is that plenty of his supporters will just blindly agree.