2012 Presidential Election - The Ups and Downs

[JAD_333]

He is whining.

Yeah, Rahm Emanuel says Romney should stop whining and defend himself. Only problem with that is that when he and any number of respected journalists point out the true facts, Obama's campaign just keeps reciting the same charge.

FactCheck.org : FactCheck to Obama Camp: Your Complaint is All Wet

Mitt Romney and his departure from Bain - The Washington Post

When did Romney really leave Bain? - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blog Term Sheet

Arbitrating the dispute over Romney's history at Bain : CJR

FactCheck.org : Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

Hasn't he figured out that hes in the big league now? The gloves come off and people don't treat you "Fair".

You tell me. IMO, outright lying is over the line.

Not presenting image that I want the leader of the Free World to have.

What? Leaders don't ask for apologies?

[snapper]

In the interests of your allies I doubt that a Romney administration could do a worse job internationally than Hilary and Obama. "Lavrov routinely eats US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for breakfast" (Why Turkey won't go to war with Syria - Opinion - Al Jazeera English) and "Barack Obama is proving an embarrassing amateur in confronting the Russian bear" (Barack Obama is proving an embarrassing amateur in confronting the Russian bear – Telegraph Blogs).

I am not the only one who has noticed this!

[JAD_333]

That probably explains Romney's position. Here again is the capitalist who gives nothing away for free.


Romney: Russia is our number one geopolitical foe – CNN Press Room - CNN.com Blogs

[snapper]

I think he's about right. Has Obama said anything about the new Russian laws? U.S. expressly target of new Russian law | TribLIVE

[dalem]

I think he's about right. Has Obama said anything about the new Russian laws? U.S. expressly target of new Russian law | TribLIVE

Why yes, I believe he said "Grrmpphhggrrlllggllmmmpphhh..."

Personally I just wish Putin would just declare himself Tsar and give the Russian peasantry what they want.

-dale

[JAD_333]

I think he's about right. Has Obama said anything about the new Russian laws? U.S. expressly target of new Russian law | TribLIVE

Not that I know of, although Dale might be right.:)

Putting the shoe on the other foot, if Russia sent a boatload of Rubles over to the US to promote it's brand of democracy, we'd be a little disgruntled as well. I can see US aid dollars funding groups in some backward nations, but Russia...?

The law Putin got passed in the Duma didn't entirely block outside financial assistance, but it did put up the usual sophisticated bureaucratic mechanisms that have the same affect.

[GVChamp]

dale,



at which point in time does raising tax rates become socialist? clinton (yeah yeah, i know...) did what obama has not-- raising taxes on the wealthy-- does that make him a socialist?

would you have been more comfortable had obama advocated raising taxes equally across the spectrum?

What do you think the top marginal tax rate should be? Right now, I see that Obama wants to raise it to the baseline 39.6%. Then I see that his party proposed a 5% surtax to fund it's health care plan. I also see numerous policy positions to uncap social security, which is effectively a 6.7% tax increase. So 11.7% on top of the 39.6% is a top MTR of 51.3%, which is...pretty high. Add in some state tax hikes and the US is going to be higher than anyone not in Scandinavia.

I don't really want this and I don't trust Obama not to do it if he has the ability to. And, yes, tax rates should be raised across the board.

[astralis]

GVChamp,

Right now, I see that Obama wants to raise it to the baseline 39.6%. Then I see that his party proposed a 5% surtax to fund it's health care plan. I also see numerous policy positions to uncap social security, which is effectively a 6.7% tax increase. So 11.7% on top of the 39.6% is a top MTR of 51.3%, which is...pretty high. Add in some state tax hikes and the US is going to be higher than anyone not in Scandinavia.

frankly, given the deduction system the real tax rate will be significantly lower. refer to the graph in post #101; even with a top marginal tax rate of 77%, for instance, in 1964 (which was a reduction from the earlier 91%!), the real average tax rate was around 43%.

even assuming the worst case scenario which you outlined above-- absolutely impossible given Congress- you're talking about a reversion to a top marginal tax rate similar to what we had in 1982, which was AFTER reagan's first round of tax-cutting.

so no, we're not discussing something outside the US historical norm.

taking a look at tax figures (and this is assuming removal of the bush tax cuts for EVERYONE, and raising the rates for the wealthy to the degree you're talking about), on an international scale, such a raise would -still- put america considerably below the OECD average; roughly around what switzerland or canada has today.

What do you think the top marginal tax rate should be?

frankly, economic research shows that the laffer curve finally holds true at a real average tax rate of 60-70%. in astralis-world i'd want to have a sizable gap between theory and reality; say, a top marginal tax rate of 50%, far fewer deductions for all.

of course i'd also lower the corporate tax rate to about 5% and reduce the welfare state significantly, so by that alone i'm not exactly a liberal.

[DOR]

What has Gov Sunnunu been smoking?

Former New Hampshire Gov. John H. Sununu, a prominent surrogate for presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, said President Obama doesn’t understand “how the American system functions” because “he spent his early years in Hawaii smoking something.”

That would be when the President was age 0-6 . . .


Romney surrogate: Obama spent youth

[JAD_333]

GVChamp,



frankly, given the deduction system the real tax rate will be significantly lower. refer to the graph in post #101; even with a top marginal tax rate of 77%, for instance, in 1964 (which was a reduction from the earlier 91%!), the real average tax rate was around 43%.

The marginal tax rate is the rate that matters in the debate. Effective rates are averages and vary from person to person. You sound like a weather forecaster trying to make the temperature lower using the wind chill factor. Everyone knows no one pays the MTR on every dollar of earned income.

of course i'd also lower the corporate tax rate to about 5% and reduce the welfare state significantly, so by that alone i'm not exactly a liberal.

Why 5%? Why not on a par with the lowest of the top 15 economies.

Reducing the welfare state would be good, but what do you mean by "significantly"? I thought you were against reducing federal spending while the economy is weak. Wouldn't raising taxes be just as bad?

[dalem]

What has Gov Sunnunu been smoking?

Former New Hampshire Gov. John H. Sununu, a prominent surrogate for presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, said President Obama doesn’t understand “how the American system functions” because “he spent his early years in Hawaii smoking something.”

That would be when the President was age 0-6 . . .


Romney surrogate: Obama spent youth

Was that before Obama was raping goats or after?

Sure, I have no proof, but it's a question worth asking.

-dale

[DOR]

Stay classy, Dale.

[astralis]

JAD,

The marginal tax rate is the rate that matters in the debate. Effective rates are averages and vary from person to person. You sound like a weather forecaster trying to make the temperature lower using the wind chill factor. Everyone knows no one pays the MTR on every dollar of earned income.

the marginal tax rate would matter more were it not for the existence of significant numbers of loopholes, credits, and deductions.

Why 5%? Why not on a par with the lowest of the top 15 economies.

i'm wary of setting american tax rates to that of other countries'. it's a useful measure of comparison, certainly. 5% would put the US at the lowest rate behind the island countries-- it would be a huge draw for international corporations.

lowest of the top 15 economies, you'll probably be looking at a corporate tax rate of around 15-17%.

Reducing the welfare state would be good, but what do you mean by "significantly"?

increase eligibility age for medicare and index to age inflation. when the recession is finally over, reductions in unemployment benefits, etc.

I thought you were against reducing federal spending while the economy is weak. Wouldn't raising taxes be just as bad?

yes, would be bad (not -quite- as bad as reducing federal spending, because of the effect is not as direct). in an ideal world, i'd keep the tax rate (for all) as is for the time being, but raise it rather more sharply once the recession was over- say, defined as two-three consecutive quarters of growth. of course republicans would never agree to that.

[JAD_333]

JAD,



the marginal tax rate would matter more were it not for the existence of significant numbers of loopholes, credits, and deductions.

Yes, I understand that, but an increase in the marginal rate will lead to an increase in the effective rate. We score the impact of tax increases and decreases, loopholes, and so forth using the marginal, or actual statutory rate, not the average percentage people actually pay.

i'm wary of setting american tax rates to that of other countries'. it's a useful measure of comparison, certainly. 5% would put the US at the lowest rate behind the island countries-- it would be a huge draw for international corporations.

lowest of the top 15 economies, you'll probably be looking at a corporate tax rate of around 15-17%.

But isn't the lower corporate rate abroad the impetus for our wanting to lower ours? It seems to me 5% will just start a bidding war with other countries. All we need to do is get close to their rates to nullify their advantage.

increase eligibility age for medicare and index to age inflation. when the recession is finally over, reductions in unemployment benefits, etc.

With a two-tiered national healthcare system; that is, retired people on Medicare and everyone else covered in theory by Medicaid, what advantage is gained by raising the eligibility age for Medicare? Won't we just be shuffling people from one account to another with no overall gain.

Slightly off topic, isn't raising the Social Security retirement age just going to make jobs more scarce for younger people?

yes, would be bad (not -quite- as bad as reducing federal spending, because of the effect is not as direct). in an ideal world, i'd keep the tax rate (for all) as is for the time being, but raise it rather more sharply once the recession was over- say, defined as two-three consecutive quarters of growth. of course republicans would never agree to that.

Didn't you hear what Bernanke said? :) We're headed to a fiscal cliff at year's end, meaning we either have to raise taxes or cut spending? Why isn't Congress as worried about it as the talking heads are? It's simple. Congress knows it has the power to head off a fiscal disaster and knows it will. The talking heads are all wrapped around the axle about what would happen if Congress doesn't act. That's the media's perpetual game, scare the crap out of people regardless of the political reality.

[dalem]

Stay classy, Dale.

I'm just trying the DNC style of campaigning, that's all.

-dale