Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[667medic]

Can someone explain, why China shouldn't build this road. I think that the 1890 treaty mentions the border as starting from Mt Gipmoche which would mean that Doklam falls within China's claim...

[667medic]

The area where the face-off is, the Indian Army controls the commanding heights. The PLA need 9 men versus 1 man from the IA to even seriously consider forcing India to back off. There is a Brahmos missile regiment in Arunachal Pradesh, which even a layman would guess have had their co-ordinates incase of war breaking out. An Indian mountain division has 15,500 men.

When Modi won in 2014, he made sure he wins 2019. This current incident will have near zero effect on his re-election chances, though I will not vote for BJP, if they make the mistake of backing down. This is Xi's nightmare, not Modis'. Border infrastructure. What is the infrastructure there? Road is the infrastructure there. China has not built a sky-walk in their borders areas so that the PLA can come jogging. It's mostly a hype, as with most things Chinese. Climate acclimatization in makeshift tents/RCC buildings is pre-requisite. China doesn't maintain much of a presence in the border areas, India does.

Mountain goats are very tasty, I have grown up eating them.

And I guess China has no missile regiments of her own :slap: The Chinese have perfected the art of using conventional weapons instead of nukes, where they would have 3-5 missile slamming down on a target. Where is the Colonel when we need him...

[Oracle]

And I guess China has no missile regiments of her own :slap: The Chinese have perfected the art of using conventional weapons instead of nukes, where they would have 3-5 missile slamming down on a target. Where is the Colonel when we need him...

The Chinese do, so do we. Missiles will come into the picture when the war escalates, if there is a war in the first place. Would Chinna escalate for a war it can't win?

[Oracle]

Can someone explain, why China shouldn't build this road. I think that the 1890 treaty mentions the border as starting from Mt Gipmoche which would mean that Doklam falls within China's claim...

China hid many facts on Doklam issue while making its border claims: Expert

[667medic]

The Chinese will blast logistic support, then what will the Indian Divisions eat, snow?

[Oracle]

The Chinese will blast logistic support, then what will the Indian Divisions eat, snow?

Sir, Indian logistics have been re-inforced. There are previous article in this thread that says so. What you've stated is if a war actually breaks out. Do check the terrain where the current stand-off is. It's the PLA who need to worry more about their logistics. The PLA get theirs from Lhasa, IA gets it locally from Sikkim. If needed those can be airlifted from Siliguri/Guwahati and Bhutan.

[n21]

The Chinese will blast logistic support, then what will the Indian Divisions eat, snow?

How will PLARF rockets target positions on mountains reverse slopes? or storage tunnels on reverse slopes? Indirect fire on mountains are in-effective be it artillery, MRLS or rockets. How will airburst warhead know when to explode when there is a 2000 feet drop right next to a Indian position?

They can target flat areas and valleys. Years of mountain fights with Pak has taught India not to deploy in valleys. Moreover India have good amount of civilian towns and cities near it's border, so food should not be a problem.

The only effective way is airpower, direct artillery and in some instance cruise missile in vertical dive mode. In Kargil India used 250K artillery around, airpower, kitchen sink on what was a brigade size NLI. I am not convinced Chinese can dislodge 12 divisions that easily.

Himalayas make it difficult for logistics, but at the same time not easy to attack either.


The same logistics question can be applied to the PLA. Easy to transport in Tibet as it is flat, but also easier targets for India. How many cities are there on the Chinese side of LAC?

Smerch rockets will be very effective on the flat road based logistics from Lhasa. How will Chinese defend against Indian Ballistic Missile attacks?

[Double Edge]

This is Xi's nightmare, not Modis

Yes, Brahmas' making that case

Xi's being called out online since the past week , that must have prompted this two weeks to withdraw ultimatum

on the actual 90th anniversary Tuesday, the mood on the internet was less than patriotic given the PLA's seemingly defensive stance against India.

"Beijing is going to be occupied anyway," one Chinese poster said. "We have no choice but to become Indian."

"They proudly display their great weapons, yet they cannot drive out the Indian army?" wrote another bemused netizen.

Yet China cannot afford an armed clash with India. Even if China wins a limited campaign, the international community would interpret the result as an armed territorial grab. That would discredit the nation's "peaceful rise" to a global power, jeopardizing Beijing's cross-border economic Belt and Road Initiative.

And if China lost such a confrontation, Xi's administration would be disgraced just before the twice-a-decade Communist Party congress this fall, where new leaders are selected. Even a paralyzed PLA may appear to be recoiling in the face of a brazen Indian invasion.

Himendra Mohan Kumar, a Delhi-based strategic affairs expert, took note of the timing that Xi is close to finish his first term and aiming at his second term. He said, "If the PLA withdraws without firing a bullet, Xi will lose his grip on power, on the PLA and on the Communist Party before his second term." In contrast, if the PLA starts a fight, "within 10 days, the international community will intervene, and there may be economic sanctions from countries like the U.S., Japan and others. That will hurt the Chinese economy and Xi's leadership."

It has been one year since the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague ruled last July that China did not have territorial rights over nearly the entire South China Sea as it claimed, but China has continued to stay on the man-made islands it built. The PLA's entry into Bhutan may well be part of China's hegemony and expansion policy.

even without actual conflict, China stands to lose. Its confrontational approach could drive India, Asia’s most important geopolitical “swing state,” firmly into the camp of the United States, China’s main global rival. It could also undermine its own commercial interests in the world’s fastest-growing major economy, which sits astride China’s energy-import lifeline.

They can forget about Bhutan as well.

Against this background, the smartest move for Xi would be to attempt to secure India’s help in finding a face-saving compromise to end the crisis. The longer the standoff lasts, the more likely it is to sully Xi’s carefully cultivated image as a powerful leader, and that of China as Asia’s hegemon, which would undermine popular support for the regime at home and severely weaken China’s influence over its neighbours

A number of commentators have wondered why China was painting itself into a corner. India and China will be neighburs for a long time, a war serves no purpose but a working boundary agreement is the need of the hour. The entire boundary. Once that is settled between the two, its settled with Bhutan as well.

In reality, Indian civilisation owes nothing to China, whereas China is heavily marked by a reverse civilisational flow...

AMB Kanwal has been very helpful over numerous tv appearances in debunking and systematically dismantling chinese statements

[Double Edge]

Can someone explain, why China shouldn't build this road. I think that the 1890 treaty mentions the border as starting from Mt Gipmoche which would mean that Doklam falls within China's claim...

https://scroll.in/article/845956/dok...-the-goalposts

There were no maps attached to the 1890 Treaty.

All sides need to get to the spot and agree where this gipmoche actually is..to date the chinese have been unwilling to do this.

And I guess China has no missile regiments of her own :slap: The Chinese have perfected the art of using conventional weapons instead of nukes, where they would have 3-5 missile slamming down on a target. Where is the Colonel when we need him...

Unlikely to use SRBMS or MRBMS for a skirmish

if it gets bigger then maybe but i thought this was going to be short and sharp.

Tell me what is the Chinese objective ?

[n21]

The standoff started early June and it was made public by the Chinese in late June. They had the choice to keep it quiet and come up with a solution with India and nobody would have known about the whole thing.

Instead they went to town with PR, threats and painted themselves in a corner for a road which had no changes since 2005 i.e. 12 years. The Chinese were okay with a status quo of having a road in a disputed place for 12 years and now suddenly it is a threat to sovereignty?

[Double Edge]

Bhutanese made it public on Jun 29 after it was clear Chinese refused their request to withdraw and maintain the status quo. This thread began the day after.

[Double Edge]

To put pressure on China:

#1. Dalai Lama should give a statement about Tibet/Xinjiang's freedom and human rights abuses.

He has come out with a statement recently. He never gives up hope.

“This century should be a century of dialogue,” the Nobel peace laureate said in the Indian capital. “One-side victory, one-side defeat is old thinking. Destruction of your neighbour is destruction of yourself. The only way is through talks.”

“Two big nations don’t have the ability to eliminate the other or defeat the other. So you have to live side by side.”

“Some of my friends say, after the 19th party meeting, some old politburo members may change because of age. So my friends say, after the 19th party meeting, there could be some possibility, some change.”

win win solution

win win is not china 2 x win

win win is all sides win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6dVGrkbUjY

[Oracle]

Bhutan rejects Beijing's claim that Doklam belongs to China

China has taken provocative steps in Doklam: US Congressman

[Oracle]

Indian Army Orders People Near Doklam to Vacate Their Village

New Delhi: The Indian Army has ordered the evacuation of a village close to the Doklam India-Bhutan-China tri-junction.

According to sources, a few hundred villagers living in Nathang village have been asked to vacate their houses immediately. Nathang is 35 km from the site of the two-month old standoff between Indian and Chinese troops.

It was not immediately clear if the order had been issued to accommodate thousands of soldiers of the 33 Corp who are reportedly moving from Sukna towards Doklam or whether it was a precautionary measure to avoid civilian casualties in case of a skirmish.

Villagers of Nathang, a small village with just a few hundred inhabitants, whom News18 spoke to, confirmed witnessing heavy troop movement in the area of late.

While the Army officially did not talk about the troop movement, some senior military officers called it an annual exercise that takes place in September, but has been advanced this year.

According to some reports, the Indian Army has called the troop movement in the area a regular maintenance move. The reports went on to quote army sources as saying that the military is in a 'no war, no peace' mode.

This, in military parlance, means being in a confrontational position with the enemy.

The state-controlled Chinese media has in the last few weeks been beating war drums quite incessantly. In a recent editorial published in China Daily, India was warned that “the countdown to a clash between the two forces has begun”.

The editorial, titled New Delhi should come to its senses while it has time, went on to state that the window to peacefully resolve the standoff in Doklam was closing as the row enters its seventh week.

“The countdown to a clash between the two forces has begun, and the clock is ticking away the time to what seems to be an inevitable conclusion.”

This is just one of the several vitriolic articles that have appeared in Chinese news agency Xinhua and their newspaper Global Times, in recent past.

The face-off between Indian and Chinese troops though is two months old now.

It started in mid-June in Doklam tri-junction when Indian troops stopped the Chinese army from building a road in the disputed area. China building a road on that site, India feared, would allow Chinese troops to cut India’s access to its northeastern states.

As per China's claims, it was constructing the road within its own territory.

Since the standoff, India has constantly batted for a dialogue but China has demanded immediate and unconditional withdrawal of Indian troops before a dialogue or peace process is initiated.

[Double Edge]

If Chinese want to redraw the map we will help them. Guess there will be no swaps after.

Time of the greatest danger is now!

a ’62 type of international situation is again in the offing — a nuclear crisis now involving the US and North Korea.

Xi Jinping is desperate to save face in whatever small way he can, and considering how far out on the rhetorical limb his regime has gone in incessantly beating the war drum, there WILL be action.

Beijing has mentioned armed intrusion into “Kashmir”, which has enough Indian forces in situ, but it may be a way to divert the Indian military’s attention from the LAC. In any case, a North Korea-US fracas will provide Beijing with just the cover to precipitate an incident, use it to escalate to big unit action and then blame the forward Indian units and India for starting the war, forcing the PLA to react. This is what China did in 1962. And then, after some level of hostilities is attained, announce a ceasefire, claim due punishment has been meted out and that a sobered up India has been “taught a lesson”. Except, this time whatever territory the PLA captures they will keep.

If the above scenario holds and Chinese initiatory action is imminent, it is “all hands on deck”-moment, but this time the Indian armed forces have to ensure that should PLA start an affray anywhere, the Indian Army will not just fight back at that geographical location but retaliate by opening up fronts in other sectors for operations where PLA is disadvantageously placed with the idea of keeping the captured territory on the LAC for good.

If Beijing behaves the way it has always done, hostilities are round the corner, and we better be absolutely ready to respond aggressively. The Prime Minister will be well advised to, perhaps, hint at another Himalayan rumble in the offing in his Independence Day speech if not earlier , and thus prepare the people and the apparatus of state for the “war” coming down the pike.

Simply put, China should NOT be permitted under any circumstances to save face and get away with claiming it has taught India a lesson. Because that will mean Modi having egg on his face. The Indian government and military should ensure that it is Beijing that takes home the lesson that this is, in fact, the “New India” they are now dealing with, not the same old, same old.