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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Unconfirmed but quite possible

    Recruitment of Tibetan soldiers in PLA is fraught with dangers & might prove counter productive. Unconfirmed, but quite possible, reports of shooting of 2 MajGen rank Offrs + 6 ORs by newly recruited Tibetan soldiers of PLA near Ngari Gunsa Airbase.

    The Tibetan recruits got provoked by foul language used against HH Holy Dalai Lama by Chinese soldiers. All 14 Tibetan soldiers have been taken to unknown place as per last inputs.
    https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/1432554899275800579

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    More naval exercises

    6 Naval Task Groups From U.S., U.K., India, Japan and Australia Underway in Pacific | USNI | Aug 30 2017

    Exercise Noble union involves UK, Japan & US

    Indian contingent is exercising with neighbouring countries

    Sivalik and Kadmatt are part of a four-ship Indian Navy Eastern Fleet Task Group that left India in early August for a two-month deployment in South East Asia, the South China Sea and Western
    Pacific, according to an Indian Ministry of Defence press release. The other two ships in the task group are destroyer INS Ranvijay (D55) and corvette INS Kora (P61).

    The exercises will include drills with the Vietnamese Peoples’ Navy, the Republic of Philippines Navy, Republic of Singapore Navy, the Indonesian Navy and the Royal Australian Navy.

    Ranvijay and Kora carried out the exercise with the VPN frigate VPNS Ly Thai To (HQ-012) in the South China Sea on Aug. 18 and then carried out an exercise with the Philippine Navy frigate BRP Antonio Luna (FF 151) on Aug. 23 in the West Philippine Seas. The Indian Navy’s Eastern Fleet deployments to Southeast and Northeast Asia have been a regular occurrence over the years, in line with the Indian navy’s extensive bilateral engagements with countries there, along with engagements under the Quad partnership.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    US Indo-Pacific allies maintain trust in Biden despite Afghanistan exit | FT | Aug 29 2021

    US allies in Asia have drawn a distinction between President Joe Biden’s chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan and Washington’s commitment to its partners in the region, rejecting claims that the pullout has undermined trust in America’s willingness to defend its friends.

    Some commentators have predicted a collapse of US credibility in the wake of its botched exit and China has been quick to try to exploit the tumultuous events as a sign of American decline.

    But government officials and defence experts from across the region have told the Financial Times that the comparison between Afghanistan and Washington’s relationship with the rest of Asia is misplaced.

    Japan, which hosts the biggest contingent of US military forces in the region, believes the Biden administration’s willingness to co-operate on securing the Indo-Pacific and expand the role of the Quad, a grouping that includes India and Australia, shows the alliance is solid.

    “The Biden administration has reaffirmed that [the mutual defence commitment] applies to the Senkaku Islands, applies in cyber attacks amounting to armed attack,” said a senior Japanese official, referring to islands in the East China Sea that are administered by Tokyo but claimed by Beijing.

    In Australia, both the government and the opposition have stepped up their commitment to the US alliance.

    “I don’t think that the end of America’s military campaign in Afghanistan is going to change that one way or the other or have any significant impact on the centrality of the alliance,” said Sam Roggeveen, director of the international security programme at the Lowy Institute, a Sydney-based think-tank.

    He added that the US had gone into Afghanistan partly as a reaction to the dramatic images of the collapse of the Twin Towers in New York on September 11 2001. “The visuals out of Kabul now are similarly stark, and there is a certain overreaction again in the commentary,” he said.

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    Security experts said the US alliances would become even more critical in countering the threat from an increasingly assertive China, a stated aim of Biden’s decision to withdraw troops from Afghanistan. Kamala Harris, the US vice-president, used a long-planned visit to Singapore and Vietnam last week to reassure Washington’s partners in the face of threats from China.

    “If the pullout from Afghanistan means that the US will be shifting its resources from the Middle East to east Asia, it’s not necessarily negative for Japan,” said Kazuhiro Maeshima, an expert on US politics at Sophia University in Tokyo.

    Lieutenant General Chun In-Bum, a South Korean retired special forces commander, said those in the country who had close ties to the US armed forces retained “great trust” in the American military.

    Still, the messy exit from Afghanistan has fuelled discussions over the need for US allies to do more in their security partnerships.

    The Taiwanese government has stressed the need to be ready to fight if China realises its threat of attacking. Su Tseng-chang, the premier, said an important lesson should be drawn from Afghanistan that “nobody will help you unless you help yourself”.

    For conservatives in Japan, who have pushed for a revision of the country’s pacifist constitution, developments in Afghanistan will strengthen their argument that the country should do more to protect itself.

    “People who may have been overly dependent on the US may have been surprised, but my understanding is that President Biden stated the obvious. It’s normal that we need to protect our own country,” said Masahisa Sato, a parliamentarian who leads on foreign affairs for Japan’s ruling Liberal Democratic party.

    Toshihiro Nakayama, a foreign policy expert at Keio University, said: “Through what happened in Afghanistan, I think there was a sense that the US-Japan alliance will not be sustainable unless Japan proactively raises its defence capability so it can ensure regional security together with the US.”

    Some observers say Washington’s failure to achieve victory in Afghanistan could also cause allies to think twice before joining future US military campaigns. “The US might have more difficulty organising a coalition of the willing for military operations outside Europe and outside east Asia in the future,” said a senior official from an American ally.

    In some countries, the Afghanistan pullout has inflamed political divisions. In Taiwan, which China threatens to invade if Taipei refuses unification indefinitely, opposition politicians have painted the US as an unreliable ally. “Events [like] in Afghanistan could likely happen in Taiwan”, said Jaw Shaw-kong, a fringe opposition figure.

    The remark triggered fury from the ruling party, which has overseen the closest relations with the US since Washington shifted diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.

    In South Korea, events in Afghanistan have fanned discord over the tens of thousands of US troops based in the country to defend against attacks from nuclear-armed North Korea and boosted calls from prominent ruling party politicians to boost military independence.

    Opposition groups hit back, saying Kabul’s collapse highlighted both the need for stability in the US alliance and that South Korea should not rush moves to take operational control over the combined US-Korean forces.

    But beyond such domestic politicking, experts dismiss a link between Washington’s alliances and its Afghanistan policy. The topic “may be intellectually interesting but not a real comparison”, said the Japanese official.

    Reporting by Kathrin Hille in Taipei, Kana Inagaki and Robin Harding in Tokyo, Edward White and Kang Buseong in Seoul and John Reed in Bangkok

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Another year, another Malabar. The sea phase is just 3 days long (!)

    https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1430750024334331905

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Take exercise Talisman Sabre, Aussie's biggest biennial exercise. How does that exercise rank with you ?
    Reads like an Oposed Landing Ex with a designated OpFor (the Americans and the Brits).

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    How does it compare with the latest Malabar ?
    Reads like how not to get into each other's way with two different commands (American and Indian) doing two different operations. Does not read like a joint operation with no single command. About the only thing I see of value is the ASW portion.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Not India but the other three quad members did exercise in the SCS last Oct. So things are slowly moving in that direction.
    Treaty members with treaty obligations exercising under an American command. Yeah, India doesn't fit.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    From what i can gather from the nature of IN's exercises in the quad, India is playing just a supporting role in any bigger conflict.
    It won't even go that far. India will not sink the Iranian Navy while the Americans are busy with the Chinese.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    So others don't make the same mistakes!
    From what i can gather from the nature of IN's exercises in the quad, India is playing just a supporting role in any bigger conflict.

    Not an active one so there is no question of coming under US command.

    We act if our interests are threatened. How wide do you interpret that ?

    That's as far as it goes.

    For now.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 31 Jul 21,, 14:29.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Who cares? You're not going into their home waters to learn how to kill them.
    Not India but the other three quad members did exercise in the SCS last Oct. So things are slowly moving in that direction.

    Two destroyers & a frigate this time, how many next time

    U.S., Japan, Australia Conduct Trilateral Naval Exercises in South China Sea | USN | Oct 19 2020

    Participants included John S. McCain, JS Kirisame (DD 104) of the JMSDF, and HMAS Arunta (FFH 151) of the RAN. These exercises marked the fifth time in 2020 that Australia, Japan, and the U.S. have conducted operations together in the 7th Fleet area of operations.

    Throughout the naval exercises, participants trained together and conducted trilateral operations designed to increase the allies’ collective ability to maintain maritime security and readiness to respond to any regional contingency. Professional engagement and cooperation with allies and partners is the foundation of regional stability, which fosters peace and prosperity for all nations.
    Fifth time in 2020 they exercised together.

    HMAS Arunta’s Commanding Officer, Cmdr. Troy Duggan said Australia was continuing to build on its already close relationship with Japan and the United States.

    “This activity is a valuable and important opportunity for all three nations,” said Duggan. “Operating with our partners is essential for building and maintaining high levels of interoperability, and contributes to our shared commitment to the security, stability and prosperity of the Indo-Pacific region.”

    Operations together included surface, subsurface, and air defense exercises, and a variety of other training events to strengthen regional maritime security operations.



    “We are grateful to have the opportunity of the trilateral exercise with the United States Navy and the Royal Australian Navy. Especially about HMAS Arunta, I feel the connection. Because I had the chance to conduct the exercise with her when I coincidentally was the commanding officer of JS KIRISAME in 2014.” said CAPT YOKOTA Kazushi, the commander, the escort division eight. “For the regional peace and stability, we are making efforts to maintain and develop a Free and Open Indo-Pacific. The iron bond with our partners is its foundation. Even though COVID-19 spreads, the JMSDF continues to strengthen the relationship with our ally partners.”



    “By operating with our close allies in this way, here in the South China Sea, we promote transparency, the rule of law, freedom of navigation and overflight, all principles that underpin security and prosperity for the Indo-Pacific, so that all nations in the region may benefit," said Cmdr. Ryan T. Easterday, commanding officer, USS John S. McCain.
    Interoperability. in the SCS.

    Not drilling the killing part yet.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 31 Jul 21,, 14:17.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Did the InN ever got their asses handed to them? If not, no, you have NOT been exercising nor training with the Americans. And yes, we chewed American butt as well got our butts chewed. Learn what doesn't work and fix them; not end of exercise flyovers dog and pony shows,
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Waste of money for ship captains to make the same mistakes over and over again. Is bad enough new mistakes will kill you but you're killing yourself by reapeating old mistakes.
    Take exercise Talisman Sabre, Aussie's biggest biennial exercise. How does that exercise rank with you ?

    https://www1.defence.gov.au/exercises/talisman-sabre-21

    Approximately 17,000 military personnel from seven nations are participating on land, air and sea during TS21.

    TS21 will run from late June to mid-August 2021, this time frame includes the initial surge of equipment and people and their subsequent departure after the exercise. Exercise activities will peak during 18-31 July 2021.
    First thing that stands out is the duration. Late June to mid Aug. That's a good month and a half to get things done.

    How does it compare with the latest Malabar ?


    The 24th edition of MALABAR maritime exercise, hosted by Indian Navy (IN) in two phases, concluded in the Arabian Sea on 20 Nov 20. Phase 1 of the exercise involving participation by Indian Navy (IN), United States Navy (USN), Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (JMSDF) and Royal Australian Navy (RAN), was conducted off Visakhapatnam in Bay of Bengal from 3-6 November 2020. The second phase was conducted in the Arabian Sea from 17-20 November 2020.
    About 3 weeks so half the time as TS21

    Phase 1 & Phase 2
    https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1669481
    https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1673165

    “We are honoured by the professionalism of our partners and look forward to flying together again as we reinforce our mutual desire to improve maritime security in the global commons.”

    During the second phase, assets from the four countries carried out photo exercise, night operations, air defence exercises and helicopter cross-deck evolutions.

    Additionally, carrier landing approaches, underway replenishment approaches, gunnery exercises, and antisubmarine warfare exercises were conducted.
    That was the agenda

    The emphasis is on inter-operability rather than war fighting. The strategic signaling is India is not alone.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why do others need to know ?
    So others don't make the same mistakes!

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why wouldn't all you said be taken aboard and worked on for the next exercise. I have no reason to doubt it.
    Waste of money for ship captains to make the same mistakes over and over again. Is bad enough new mistakes will kill you but you're killing yourself by reapeating old mistakes.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Does not directly threaten but its strengthening efforts with others against them. And that gets repeated with other like minded powers in the region.

    All done quietly but in plain view.
    Who cares? You're not going into their home waters to learn how to kill them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    What? That defeats the purpose of learning. You WANT the lessons to spread far and wide. You want others to know where and how you fucked up. What lead you to make the wrong decisions. How to recognize those mistakes before they become fatal. At times, you may not have made mistakes in which case, your mistake was not to have a contingency. Close door sessions DO NOT lead to brain storming across the entire navy.

    One of my lessons is that a bad plan cannot be executed into a good plan just because I stayed up and watch it unfold realtime; hoping to make changes in real time.
    Why do others need to know ? Why wouldn't all you said be taken aboard and worked on for the next exercise. I have no reason to doubt it.


    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I would. Nothing here threatens their area of interests. These exercises are as much of a threat to Chinese SCS islands as they are to Canadian Baffin Islands. You want to scare the Chinese? Hold the exercise within sight of those SCS islands. Otherwise, they can and do ignore them.
    Does not directly threaten but its strengthening efforts with others against them. And that gets repeated with other like minded powers in the region.

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    All done quietly but in plain view.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Two interesting developments over the last week

    A Taiwan Contingency and Japan’s Counterstrike Debate | The Diplomat | Jul 22 2021

    If the loss of Taiwan is so important to Japan then when do they plan to exercise with the Taiwanese ?


    China threatens Japan with nuclear war over intervention in Taiwan | Business Standard | Jul 23 2021

    This has been doing the rounds on Indian channels.

    It's the kind of BS that Mike called out a while ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    If it happened it remained behind closed doors.
    What? That defeats the purpose of learning. You WANT the lessons to spread far and wide. You want others to know where and how you fucked up. What lead you to make the wrong decisions. How to recognize those mistakes before they become fatal. At times, you may not have made mistakes in which case, your mistake was not to have a contingency. Close door sessions DO NOT lead to brain storming across the entire navy.

    One of my lessons is that a bad plan cannot be executed into a good plan just because I stayed up and watch it unfold realtime; hoping to make changes in real time.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Can China just ignore these exercises thinking them to be harmless ?
    I would. Nothing here threatens their area of interests. These exercises are as much of a threat to Chinese SCS islands as they are to Canadian Baffin Islands. You want to scare the Chinese? Hold the exercise within sight of those SCS islands. Otherwise, they can and do ignore them.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 25 Jul 21,, 01:10.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    What? InN as in the Indian Navy. Did Indian ships got their asses handed to them so that they can learn what their mistakes are and how to fix them. Those are REAL exercises, not dog and pony shows.

    COPE reflects reality. We don't go for dogfighters anymore. A missile can do more g's than a human body can withstand. Let the missile do the work.
    If it happened it remained behind closed doors.

    Can China just ignore these exercises thinking them to be harmless ?

    In the last decade we've made purchases that make us more effective at sea.

    The next decade will bring further improvements.

    Indian Ocean is a big place. Americans are working with the Indonesians now to build more maritime awareness.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:25.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by n21 View Post
    https://theprint.in/defence/china-in...rategy/701028/

    India has starting moving it's 1st Corps in to the Ladakh Theater. 1st Corps was earlier focused on Pakistan.
    It's all one big training exercise

    “This is part of the re-orientation training. This is not a permanent deployment as they will come back to their stations after some time. They will be replaced by the rest of the elements from the particular Corps. The Strike Corps will come into play when there is a need,” a source told ThePrint.

    This development comes at a time when China continues to amass thousands of soldiers close to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and carries on with heavy military construction activities on its territory, which is a clear indication that it is preparing itself for the long haul.

    Originally posted by n21 View Post
    This would be on top of existing divisions which are already closer to LAC. I am guessing PLA will have to move some of units westward.
    Having less on the eastern front or for their navy. Two can play at this game.

    If the balloon goes up we retake Aksai Chin. Snap their connections between Tibet & Xianjiang.

    There's also PO J&K which snaps their connection with Pakistan.

    hehe, looks like we threaten them more than they threaten us. They haven't got a hope at the Chicken's neck.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:59.

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  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You're make the number 1 mistake that everyone makes who have not gone to Command School. You're assuming the Opposing General is not as smart as you are or that the Pakistanis are superior mountain fighters and you're basing this on what? A couple of brawls?.
    Then tell me what is smart about the PLA to date. All i see are a bunch of bumbling fools led by an even bigger one in Beijng.

    I have more respect for Mushraf in the mountains than the PLA. The guy spent two days inside Indian territory and we were none the wiser. Feb 99. it was a good month after we begin to sense something is amiss. They'd already completed emplacing themselves securely by then. Such is the element of surprise.

    And they were not brawls. 500+ men dead in Kargil alone.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The very fact that the Chinese yielded their positions when it became unattainable should tell you that they could see you coming and not to committ to an impossible defence. Abandoning an unattainable position is a sign of military prowess, not amateurism.
    Way i read it is we put pressure on them.

    Sure sign of a bully is to retreat when that happens.

    We are not doing it in the remaining areas and so they stay put.

    So we continue to build leverage for the day that happens.

    The jokers want us to separate border from the relationship. We said nothing doing.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:15.

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