The battle of Brexit!

[snapper]

Respectfully Boris is talking bo**ocks - Britain is already paying that much in interest rates on the debt since the £ sunk and then apparently one has to pay a "leaving fee" as well as perhaps tariffs on exports to the continent. He is lying straight and simple. Non possible est. He just wants to be PM. He will never make it. Another Heseltine.

[Toby]

Respectfully Boris is talking bo**ocks - Britain is already paying that much in interest rates on the debt since the £ sunk and then apparently one has to pay a "leaving fee" as well as perhaps tariffs on exports to the continent. He is lying straight and simple. Non possible est. He just wants to be PM. He will never make it. Another Heseltine.

As I have already said time and again on this thread and others. The EU's main weakness is that it is not the sum of its parts. Germany and France and others will be hit far worse than the UK in terms of trade tariffs....Pretending that the EU is one entity is quite frankly ridiculous because the plain truth is it ISN'T!!

1. Can Germany afford to lose UK trade?
2. Can France afford to lose UK trade?
3. Can Italy afford to lose UK trade?
4. Can Belgium?
5. Can Holland?
6. Can Denmark?
7. Can Spain?
No they can't, check the trade figure they don't lie the only liars and bullshitters are the EU commision!

[Toby]

Boris prepares for battle

[Albany Rifles]

Boris prepares for battle
[ATTACH]44567[/ATTACH]

Dukakis Part 2

[Toby]

Or

part 2

[kato]

There's a reason people outside of the islands don't like her particularly.

And for historical context, the Challenger ride was Thatcher's haphazard attempt to delude the public into thinking she'd "support" the British defence industry, with the Heseltine resignation over the Westland Affair still fresh in people's minds (and the Westland Affair was just what the UK still deals with today - a struggle between pro-Europeans and those pro-Americans who happily destroy any local industry for the sake of "independence"). It was apparently successful enough that she felt safe enough to kill off GEC as a defence supplier only three months later...

[Toby]

There's a reason people outside of the islands don't like her particularly.

And for historical context, the Challenger ride was Thatcher's haphazard attempt to delude the public into thinking she'd "support" the British defence industry, with the Heseltine resignation over the Westland Affair still fresh in people's minds (and the Westland Affair was just what the UK still deals with today - a struggle between pro-Europeans and those pro-Americans who happily destroy any local industry for the sake of "independence"). It was apparently successful enough that she felt safe enough to kill off GEC as a defence supplier only three months later...

Heseltine was a primadonna, with an eye firmly on Thatcher's job. GEC was acquired by BAE after it had made various bad acquisitions. I don't see how Thatcher is to blame for bad deals done by the board at GEC....she didn't run the company. The 80's and 90's was a period of mergers between defence, electronics and communications companies. All companies rise and fall depending on their business model. How is Thatcher to blame for that?

[snapper]

As I have already said time and again on this thread and others. The EU's main weakness is that it is not the sum of its parts. Germany and France and others will be hit far worse than the UK in terms of trade tariffs....Pretending that the EU is one entity is quite frankly ridiculous because the plain truth is it ISN'T!!

1. Can Germany afford to lose UK trade?
2. Can France afford to lose UK trade?
3. Can Italy afford to lose UK trade?
4. Can Belgium?
5. Can Holland?
6. Can Denmark?
7. Can Spain?
No they can't, check the trade figure they don't lie the only liars and bullshitters are the EU commision!

Well first Britain does not even pay £350m per week to the EU - apparently by Treasury figures it amounts to around £252m per week (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41306354). Nor of course is BoJo taking into account any 'leaving fee', nor as I said before the increased and growing debt repayments. Britain is already worse off due to the drop in the value of £ so if he wants to increase NHS funding he can only do so by adding to the debt. But I honestly doubt any of this matters to him - he just wants to be PM and this is just 'Prima Donna' as Heseltine ever was except that Heseltine was at least sincere in his pro European beliefs. The Cameron - Osbourne Government, even shackled down by Clegg and his pinkos was far superior to this shower and had a clear view of how to clear the deficit while taking the lower paid out of the tax system altogether. Don't get me wrong I like Boris as a person - he is a classicist and pro Greek rather an Romanophile so when I met him briefly we chatted classics. I just do not think he is telling the truth here and I am pretty sure he knows it. I pray to God he is never PM.

I do not think the Europeans need British trade as much as Britain needs access to their markets. Nor do I think the EU can be seen to allow the UK to get out lightly as to do so would only encourage others to follow suit. I do hope you do get a free trade deal - I am sure Ukraine would welcome a free trade deal with UK, we already have one with Canada but then Canada is a kind of special ally as they have so many citizens of Ukrainian descent.

It was apparently successful enough that she felt safe enough to kill off GEC as a defence supplier only three months later...

GEC became Marconi Systems which was acquired by BAE Systems. The industry was not 'destroyed' but merged.

[kato]

GEC became Marconi Systems which was acquired by BAE Systems.

GEC did not become Marconi Systems. Marconi was bought up by English Electric in 1946, and along with English Electric bought by GEC in 1968. It was split off in 1999 - after Thatcherism, during Blair - and sold to British Aerospace who renamed it BAE Systems.

Thatcher effectively blocked GEC's aquisition of Plessey until 1989, while in the meantime cancelling contracts formed with GEC - in 1986 in particular opting for off-the-shelf Boeing E3 instead of Nimrod AEW3. An even more dubious one was CACS-4, the C4I system for the Type 23: They tendered out development studies to both Plessey and Ferranti in order to have two competing designs to chose from (after cancelling a previous contract with Ferranti in August 87) - and then awarded neither of them the contract, killing off both companies - with both soon snatched up by GEC itself, and not playing a role as defence contractors since then at all anymore. That kinda thing is not market forces, that's a government bent on downsizing the market.

It's not like John Major was any better in that regard btw. He managed to kill off Swan Hunter.

Realistically it's the utterly ridiculous story of how BAE Systems as virtually the only defence company still existant on the islands came to be. By willfully destroying all competitors and then letting a single company pick up the pieces. Only for that company to then split it all out once a Labour government came to be.

[zara]

As I have already said time and again on this thread and others. The EU's main weakness is that it is not the sum of its parts. Germany and France and others will be hit far worse than the UK in terms of trade tariffs....Pretending that the EU is one entity is quite frankly ridiculous because the plain truth is it ISN'T!!

1. Can Germany afford to lose UK trade?
2. Can France afford to lose UK trade?
3. Can Italy afford to lose UK trade?
4. Can Belgium?
5. Can Holland?
6. Can Denmark?
7. Can Spain?
No they can't, check the trade figure they don't lie the only liars and bullshitters are the EU commision!

But the EU is acting as one entity. They are negotiating as one, and I can't think of a time when the EU was in such unamity.
All our governments attempts to play the 27 individually have been rebuffed.

Individually the countries you named are losing privieged access to one country. The UK.
We on the other hand are losing privelged access not just the 27 countries, but the 50+ trade deals we have through the EU around the world, not to mention the ones they are negotiating or close to concluding. The UK leaves with zero. A huge blow to us, small change to each of the EU27.

And thats not even mentioning non-tarriff barriers which are far more important.

[Toby]

But the EU is acting as one entity. They are negotiating as one, and I can't think of a time when the EU was in such unamity.
All our governments attempts to play the 27 individually have been rebuffed.

Individually the countries you named are losing privieged access to one country. The UK.
We on the other hand are losing privelged access not just the 27 countries, but the 50+ trade deals we have through the EU around the world, not to mention the ones they are negotiating or close to concluding. The UK leaves with zero. A huge blow to us, small change to each of the EU27.

And thats not even mentioning non-tarriff barriers which are far more important.

Germany currently sells the UK 90 Billion more than the UK sells to Germany....So Germany can afford to lose UK trade??? sounds like an awful lot of jobs they're putting at risk....and no we're not negotiating with the EU.....we're negotiating with the Franco-German alliance who are using Barny and Junk as a conduit....
Germany is already making strategic moves to cover its interests in the UK with the proposed merger of Tata steel with Thyssen/Krupp, if that's not confidence in the British market place and British industry, I don't what is!

[Toby]

Well first Britain does not even pay £350m per week to the EU - apparently by Treasury figures it amounts to around £252m per week (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41306354). Nor of course is BoJo taking into account any 'leaving fee', nor as I said before the increased and growing debt repayments.

I always become suspicious when Politicians start waving magic figures about

Britain is already worse off due to the drop in the value of £ so if he wants to increase NHS funding he can only do so by adding to the debt. But I honestly doubt any of this matters to him - he just wants to be PM and this is just 'Prima Donna' as Heseltine ever was except that Heseltine was at least sincere in his pro European beliefs.

I agree, but it was nice to hear somebody being positive for a change instead of this constant brainwashing negativity coming from certain quarters.

The Cameron - Osbourne Government, even shackled down by Clegg and his pinkos was far superior to this shower and had a clear view of how to clear the deficit while taking the lower paid out of the tax system altogether. Don't get me wrong I like Boris as a person - he is a classicist and pro Greek rather an Romanophile so when I met him briefly we chatted classics. I just do not think he is telling the truth here and I am pretty sure he knows it. I pray to God he is never PM.

I hear what you are saying. I doubt anybody would be able to produce a smooth ride....Cameron did a runner because he knew what was coming in political term. Fine ships Captain he was!!!

I do not think the Europeans need British trade as much as Britain needs access to their markets

Really? We've already established that its Merkel pulling the EU negotiating strings, along with Macron. I'm not trying to be offensive but in terms of trade there is only about 7 countries in the EU worth a carrot....the rest are spoon fed and on life support.

. Nor do I think the EU can be seen to allow the UK to get out lightly as to do so would only encourage others to follow suit. I do hope you do get a free trade deal - I am sure Ukraine would welcome a free trade deal with UK, we already have one with Canada but then Canada is a kind of special ally as they have so many citizens of Ukrainian descent.

Bit like going to the dentist at the minute.....Plenty of Ukrainians here too, so no probs on that front I reckon

GEC became Marconi Systems which was acquired by BAE Systems. The industry was not 'destroyed' but merged

'Destroyed' gives it a bit more drama.....

GEC's defence arm was 'Marconi Electronic Systems' and was merged with British Aerospace to form BAE Systems. The rest of GEC continued as Marconi plc.
Marconi plc was restructured to Marconi Corporation plc in May 2003. On 23 January 2006, Ericsson acquired a majority of Marconi Communications' parent company, Marconi Corporation plc. The remainder of Marconi Corporation plc was renamed Telent plc.


Telent Plc
Products - Communication and I.T. systems services
Revenue - £401 million GBP (2016)
Number of employees - Approximately 2,000 (2016)

[Toby]

GEC did not become Marconi Systems.

The Defence arm of GEC was called 'Marconi Electronic Systems'

Marconi was bought up by English Electric in 1946, and along with English Electric bought by GEC in 1968. It was split off in 1999 - after Thatcherism, during Blair

So Thatcher not to blame at all then???

-

and sold to British Aerospace who renamed it BAE Systems.

It was merged with British Aerospace and became BAE Systems

Thatcher effectively blocked GEC's aquisition of Plessey until 1989, while in the meantime cancelling contracts formed with GEC - in 1986 in particular opting for off-the-shelf Boeing E3 instead of Nimrod AEW3. An even more dubious one was CACS-4, the C4I system for the Type 23: They tendered out development studies to both Plessey and Ferranti in order to have two competing designs to chose from (after cancelling a previous contract with Ferranti in August 87) - and then awarded neither of them the contract, killing off both companies - with both soon snatched up by GEC itself, and not playing a role as defence contractors since then at all anymore. That kinda thing is not market forces, that's a government bent on downsizing the market.

and the collapse of the Soviet Union and the threat from the east diminishing had no baring did it not?

It's not like John Major was any better in that regard btw. He managed to kill off Swan Hunter.

'Kill off' ?......In 2016, Swan Hunter was relaunched into the subsea industry by Gerard Kroese, the eldest son of former owner Jaap Kroese. Swan Hunter started to offer specialist equipment, design, engineering & project management services to the offshore renewables and subsea oil & gas energy markets.[25] On 12 October 2016, the company announced the issue of a letter of intent for the design and build of a basket carousel loading tower.[26] The company announced further equipment pool growth through a 15Te tensioner and 450Te reel drive system.[27] Swan Hunter announced loading tower readiness on 5 May 2017[28] with completion of mobilisation onto EMAS Chiyoda Subsea's world-class multi-lay vessel 'Lewek Constellation' shortly thereafter

Realistically it's the utterly ridiculous story of how BAE Systems as virtually the only defence company still existant on the islands came to be. By willfully destroying all competitors and then letting a single company pick up the pieces. Only for that company to then split it all out once a Labour government came to be.

Destroying? love the drama! bit like calling empty crisp packets "potential loud banging devices"

[zara]

Germany currently sells the UK 90 Billion more than the UK sells to Germany....So Germany can afford to lose UK trade??? sounds like an awful lot of jobs they're putting at risk....and no we're not negotiating with the EU.....we're negotiating with the Franco-German alliance who are using Barny and Junk as a conduit....
Germany is already making strategic moves to cover its interests in the UK with the proposed merger of Tata steel with Thyssen/Krupp, if that's not confidence in the British market place and British industry, I don't what is!

Not sure where you got the 90Billion figure for Germany alone, everything I've read put the trade deficit for the whole of Europe at 70 billion... do you mean trade defecit? Or something else.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/
http://researchbriefings.files.parli...1/CBP-7851.pdf

Remember the EU parliament has to ratify any Brexit deal so all countries get a say. Also The Council must approve of the progress Barnier makes, so they also have influence there. In the end each individual country gets a veto on the deal negotiated.

True that the larger economies weild greater influence, but thats hardly much different to how England weilds dispro-portinate power over the NI, Scotland, Wales and Gibraltar.

[zara]

So the leaks say that tomorrow May will offer to pay into the EU up until the end of 2020 in return for a 2 year transition period in the single market but an alternative customs union that allows us to make trade deals outside the EU. That would be awesome if the EU said yes, but its a terrible deal for them. Even if they did accept the bill (said to be worth €20 billion), the UK have still to propose a workable solution for Ireland (Wet border) and rights on EU citizens before the member states will allow Barnier to talk about a future trade deal. Cant see how the EU can accept this as anything other than a starting point..