Originally posted by TopHatter
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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It
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Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostSometimes I think he's a diplomat, he's yelling, but from both sides.
Spar with both sides because both are pushing an agenda and frequently lie.
Which makes getting to the crux of the matter harder as you keep getting diverted into rat holes. See how the news gets presented, we get it it in drips & drabs. So often i'm unable to take a position until several weeks and we know some more.
The simple rule is if i can't take some one else's position then i adopt it.
For me its defendable until i throw it at some one who figures a way to do it.
Rinse & repeat
This style makes you no friends, because you're rubbing up against people and treading on toes.
I think this is the best configuration to be in a free countryLast edited by Double Edge; 30 Dec 19,, 14:49.
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Originally posted by Double Edge View PostAlready had this argument with him.
He thinks people's vote does not count. EC screws it up. System is broken
If people think like this then you get Trump & Brexit because people who support do believe their vote counts.
I say system is broken if people like Trump & Brexit cannot happen. THAT is when your vote does not count.
The elites have captured it and can get the result they want. They tell you what to think, what to do and how to vote.
He goes on about popular vote when the system is first past the post.
Many countries use FPP. That tells me it has value.
That dense pockets cannot dominate broad support.
Does not require 3 million votes in California to go from 54 to 55 in EC. This is the best slam i've heard for popular vote.
NZFirst, a 'what can we line our pockets with while we're in power' party, with 7.2%
Greens, International Socialists (see nz first) with 6.3%
And Labour, 36.9%, historically working class, now International Socialists but don't harp on about doom-saying to allow the Greens space to exist.
As the prime minister is incredibly weak, the Greens at 6.3% support effectively run the country. Every major piece of policy has been written by them. We've been captured by a fanatical minority, yet this system is supposedly truly every vote counts. I also have the opinion that the prime minister actually belongs to the greens but saw the easier ride to power through Labour. Anyway, all policy introduced is Green policy.
Michael Walsh said it, he writes coulmns in the NY Post from time to time. Reason i watch him is when the MSM was saying Trump would lose, this guy got in a car, drove around the country and came up with a different assessment. He called the result a month before the elections.
Good old fashioned reporting. Not sitting in some fancy office in Manhattan or DC and writing nonsense. He's been quiet of late but i'm sure he'll get into it soon.
I learnt there is disconnect with what the media leads you to believe and what the people think. And its taken me a long time to appreciate this difference. Media is about agenda. All the big name media houses in the US & elsewhere are into it.
It's not working any more. It's never worked but it took a Trump to make that clear.Last edited by Parihaka; 30 Dec 19,, 18:08.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
Which makes getting to the crux of the matter harder as you keep getting diverted into rat holes.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostBoth FPP and proportional representation have their flaws. Having long believed a minority voice in parliament was necessary, I'm now having second thoughts. Our current government is held together by three parties.
NZFirst, a 'what can we line our pockets with while we're in power' party, with 7.2%
Greens, International Socialists (see nz first) with 6.3%
And Labour, 36.9%, historically working class, now International Socialists but don't harp on about doom-saying to allow the Greens space to exist.
As the prime minister is incredibly weak, the Greens at 6.3% support effectively run the country. Every major piece of policy has been written by them. We've been captured by a fanatical minority, yet this system is supposedly truly every vote counts. I also have the opinion that the prime minister actually belongs to the greens but saw the easier ride to power through Labour. Anyway, all policy introduced is Green policy.
I've seen your setup at the Indian state election level. #3 wants the Chief minister seat in exchange for support. King maker.
If no other alternative is possible the present configuration remains until a policy deadlock is reached. Then things get interesting. The majority party wants a policy at the expense of partners withdrawing support. They then have had to cobble support from the opposition to remain in power. Sometimes they have succeeded. Some times govt has fallen for want of just one vote : )
I got slammed here for months for saying legacy media was heavily biased. Every leftist on the board screamed at me for claiming this, Trumps election proved them wrong. The absolute horror and contempt the legacy media across the globe portrayed when Trump was elected after them stating as fact that Hillary would certainly win was proof positive. The fact is all media lies, all media has a position to push. Looking at a broad spectrum gives you an overview from which you make judgements, to be adjusted later as more facts come out after the spinmeisters have moved on.
My preferred US news source these days is PBS. Nobody here will attack them. Not even Trump. Safe.Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Dec 19,, 20:10.
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostWell no. WAB has always been about cutting through BS to see what is actually there. 2-3 years ago and right up to now, "Trump colluded with the Russians to subvert the Presidential Elections". 2-3 years later, after incredibly broad criteria series of investigations, nothing.
Mueller also found nearly a dozen instances of potential obstruction of justice, that were thwarted only by Trump's staff defying his orders.
So please, spare me the rank bullshit that Trump and his organization didn't collude with Russians, whether or not Mueller was able to recommend charges (he couldn't, due to DoJ rules), or demonstrate clear criminal intent.
As the late Charles Krauthammer said rather adroitly "Bungled collusion is still collusion".
Unless of course you think that Charles Krauthammer was a liberal swamp dweller.
I never doubted that you supported Bernie Sanders. What I'm trying to figure out is how you can support a hardcore liberal socialist Sanders in the past, and now stoutly defend a hardcore right-wing authoritarian like Donald Trump.
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostYes he is.
Perhaps you can cite some specific examples of the most egregious occasions where this has occurred?
Because my central belief is that Donald Trump is a loathsome c*nt. Which you agree with.
You also lamented that you can't get through to me without simply provoking more anger. What exactly are you trying to get through to me? That it's ok that a loathsome c*nt like Donald Trump is President, no big deal, that I should get over it and move on?
Originally posted by Parihaka View Postecho chamber
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostI've always considered you a classical liberal. Would that be correct?
Drawing on ideas of Adam Smith, classical liberals believed that it is in the common interest that all individuals be able to secure their own economic self-interest. They were critical of what would come to be the idea of the welfare state as interfering in a free market. Despite Smith’s resolute recognition of the importance and value of labor and of laborers, classical liberals selectively criticized labour's group rights being pursued at the expense of individual rights while accepting corporations' rights, which led to inequality of bargaining power. Classical liberals argued that individuals should be free to obtain work from the highest-paying employers while the profit motive would ensure that products that people desired were produced at prices they would pay. In a free market, both labor and capital would receive the greatest possible reward while production would be organized efficiently to meet consumer demand. Classical liberals argued for what they called a minimal state, limited to the following functions:
Classical liberals argued for what they called a minimal state, limited to the following functions:
- A government to protect individual rights and to provide services that cannot be provided in a free market.
- A common national defense to provide protection against foreign invaders.
- Laws to provide protection for citizens from wrongs committed against them by other citizens, which included protection of private property, enforcement of contracts and common law.
- Building and maintaining public institutions.
- Public works that included a stable currency, standard weights and measures and building and upkeep of roads, canals, harbors, railways, communications and postal services.
The original philosophy of liberalism (now sometimes called classical liberalism, or libertarianism in the US), favors many forms of freedom, such as:
- Freedom of speech
- Freedom of religion
- The right to form political parties and vote
- Freedom to invest in and use private property
- Freedom to work as one chooses
- Freedom to enter into economic contracts
- Free trade and freedom of migration
- Sexual freedom
- Equal rights independent of race or sex
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostThat is demonstrably false according to the Mueller Report, as I've already stated, and you have conveniently ignored.
As an initial matter, this Office evaluated potentially criminal conduct that involved the collective action of multiple individuals not under the rubric of “collusion,” but through the lens of conspiracy law. In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” appears in the Acting Attorney General’s August 2, 2017 memorandum; it has frequently been invoked in public reporting; and it is sometimes referenced in antitrust law, see, e.g., Brooke Group v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., 509 U.S. 209, 227 (1993). But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the U.S. Code; nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. To the contrary, even as defined in legal dictionaries, collusion is largely synonymous with conspiracy as that crime is set forth in the general federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371. See Black’s Law Dictionary 321 (10th ed. 2014) (collusion is “[a]n agreement to defraud another or to do or obtain something forbidden by law”); 1 Alexander Burrill, A Law Dictionary and Glossary 311 (1871) (“An agreement between two or more persons to defraud another by the forms of law, or to employ such forms as means of accomplishing some unlawful object.”); 1 Bouvier’s Law Dictionary 352
180
U.S. Department of Justice Attorney Work Product // May Contain Material Protected Under Fed. R. Crim. P. 6(e)
(1897) (“An agreement between two or more persons to defraud a person of his rights by the forms of law, or to obtain an object forbidden by law.”).
For that reason, this Office’s focus in resolving the question of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law, not the commonly discussed term “collusion.” The Office considered in particular whether contacts between Trump Campaign officials and Russia-linked individuals could trigger liability for the crime of conspiracy—either under statutes that have their own conspiracy language (e.g., 18 U.S.C. §§ 1349, 1951(a)), or under the general conspiracy statute (18 U.S.C. § 371). The investigation did not establish that the contacts described in Volume I, Section IV, supra, amounted to an agreement to commit any substantive violation of federal criminal law—including foreign-influence and campaign-finance laws, both of which are discussed further below. The Office therefore did not charge any individual associated with the Trump Campaign with conspiracy to commit a federal offense arising from Russia contacts, either under a specific statute or under Section 371’s offenses clause.
The Office also did not charge any campaign official or associate with a conspiracy under Section 371’s defraud clause. That clause criminalizes participating in an agreement to obstruct a lawful function of the U.S. government or its agencies through deceitful or dishonest means. See Dennis v. United States, 384 U.S. 855, 861 (1966); Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182, 188 (1924); see also United States v. Concord Mgmt. & Consulting LLC, 347 F. Supp. 3d 38, 46 (D.D.C. 2018). The investigation did not establish any agreement among Campaign officials— or between such officials and Russia-linked individuals—to interfere with or obstruct a lawful function of a government agency during the campaign or transition period. And, as discussed in Volume I, Section V.A, supra, the investigation did not identify evidence that any Campaign official or associate knowingly and intentionally participated in the conspiracy to defraud that the Office charged, namely, the active-measures conspiracy described in Volume I, Section II, supra. Accordingly, the Office did not charge any Campaign associate or other U.S. person with conspiracy to defraud the United States based on the Russia-related contacts described in Section IV above.
2Originally posted by TopHatter View PostSo, once again, Mueller found multiple instances of the Trump Campaign knowingly, gleefully, meeting with Russian actors, for the purpose of obtaining information on a political opponent
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostIndeed, Trump would a few years later brazenly admit to doing such a thing again in an interview with George Stephanopoulos.Originally posted by TrumpI think I'd want to hear it.. It's not interference, they have information, I think I'd take it. If I thought maybe there was something wrong I'd go maybe to the FBI.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostMueller also found nearly a dozen instances of potential obstruction of justice, that were thwarted only by Trump's staff defying his orders.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostSo please, spare me the rank bullshit that Trump and his organization didn't collude with RussiansOriginally posted by TopHatter View Postwhether or not Mueller was able to recommend charges (he couldn't, due to DoJ rules)
In sum, contrary to the position taken by the President’s counsel, we concluded that, in light of the Supreme Court precedent governing separation-of-powers issues, we had a valid basis for investigating the conduct at issue in this report. In our view, the application of the obstruction statutes would not impermissibly burden the President’s performance of his Article II function to supervise prosecutorial conduct or to remove inferior law-enforcement officers. And the protection of the criminal justice system from corrupt acts by any person—including the President—accords with the fundamental principle of our government that “[n]o [person] in
country is so high that he is above the law.” United States v. Lee, 106 U.S. 196, 220 (1882); see also Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. at 697; United States v. Nixon, supra
IV. CONCLUSION
Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President’s conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
Originally posted by TopHatter View Post, or demonstrate clear criminal intent.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostAs the late Charles Krauthammer said rather adroitly "Bungled collusion is still collusion".
Unless of course you think that Charles Krauthammer was a liberal swamp dweller.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostI never doubted that you supported Bernie Sanders. What I'm trying to figure out is how you can support a hardcore liberal socialist Sanders in the past, and now stoutly defend a hardcore right-wing authoritarian like Donald Trump.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostAnd you find me guilty of Hyperbolic Political Propaganda? If so, please provide some specific examples.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostAnd yet you still defend him. And you wonder why I "have become a very, very angry man". In the other thread you also claim that I will "brook no disagreement".
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostPerhaps you can cite some specific examples of the most egregious occasions where this has occurred?
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostBecause my central belief is that Donald Trump is a loathsome c*nt. Which you agree with.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostYou also lamented that you can't get through to me without simply provoking more anger. What exactly are you trying to get through to me? That it's ok that a loathsome c*nt like Donald Trump is President, no big deal, that I should get over it and move on?
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostCould you be a little more vague please?
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostI did some careful checking to make sure we're on the same page as to what a classical liberal is:
So, in the sense that I consider myself a center-right libertarian (small L, as I generally mistrust political parties), I would say that classical liberal would be fairly accurate, yes.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostCool, so you too stand for the rule of law. We still have that in common.
You think that Mueller's investigation and the House impeachment hearings cleared Trump, but you ignore his nearly complete refusal to provide a single witness or document.
You have no problem with the documented efforts of the Trump Campaign to cooperate with Russian agents.
You have no problem with Trump's proclamation that he'd do it again if given the chance by a foreign power.
You ignore his chickenshit refusal to provide an in-person deposition to Mueller, instead answering written questions, mostly with "I don't recall", wherein Mueller has to all-but-denounce Trump's "participation" to be a fucking joke.
You ignore Mueller's citing of a dozen instances of attempted obstruction of justice.
You defend all of this by saying "It would make Trump look bad so of course they obstructed justice"....as if that doesn't violate the law six ways from Sunday, starting right here: 2 U.S. Code § 192, “Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers,”
As much as I despise Hillary Clinton, at least she had the balls to testify in person in front of Congress for hours on end. Ditto for Bill Clinton, who gave an in-person deposition to Ken Starr.
And then there's Donald Trump, a sack-less wonder that would've perjured himself with the very first question: "State your name for the record".
Donald Trump has done everything he can, using every avenue of the Executive Branch and the court system, to obstruct these investigations, even to the point of physically threatening the life of the whistleblower that, yes, you are obsessed with.
And when these badly-hobbled investigations "mysteriously" don't turn up the smoking gun that would satisfy you (would anything? I doubt it), you then proclaim total exoneration, thus parroting more of Trump's lies.
So why don't you have the balls to come right out and proudly proclaim it: "I'm 100% right behind Donald Trump and his lies, his corruption, his rank sewer-dwelling bullshit, 100 percent"
Go ahead, it won't hurt. At the very least you drop could the "I stand for the rule of law" line of crap because it's perfectly obvious in your defense of Donald Trump that that is the LAST thing you stand for.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostI was going to go through this point by point (again) but I don't really see why I should bother.
You think that Mueller's investigation and the House impeachment hearings cleared Trump, but you ignore his nearly complete refusal to provide a single witness or document.
You have no problem with the documented efforts of the Trump Campaign to cooperate with Russian agents.
You have no problem with Trump's proclamation that he'd do it again if given the chance by a foreign power.
You ignore his chickenshit refusal to provide an in-person deposition to Mueller, instead answering written questions, mostly with "I don't recall", wherein Mueller has to all-but-denounce Trump's "participation" to be a fucking joke.
You ignore Mueller's citing of a dozen instances of attempted obstruction of justice.
You defend all of this by saying "It would make Trump look bad so of course they obstructed justice"....as if that doesn't violate the law six ways from Sunday, starting right here: 2 U.S. Code § 192, “Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers,”
As much as I despise Hillary Clinton, at least she had the balls to testify in person in front of Congress for hours on end. Ditto for Bill Clinton, who gave an in-person deposition to Ken Starr.
And then there's Donald Trump, a sack-less wonder that would've perjured himself with the very first question: "State your name for the record".
Donald Trump has done everything he can, using every avenue of the Executive Branch and the court system, to obstruct these investigations, even to the point of physically threatening the life of the whistleblower that, yes, you are obsessed with.
And when these badly-hobbled investigations "mysteriously" don't turn up the smoking gun that would satisfy you (would anything? I doubt it), you then proclaim total exoneration, thus parroting more of Trump's lies.
So why don't you have the balls to come right out and proudly proclaim it: "I'm 100% right behind Donald Trump and his lies, his corruption, his rank sewer-dwelling bullshit, 100 percent"
Go ahead, it won't hurt. At the very least you drop could the "I stand for the rule of law" line of crap because it's perfectly obvious in your defense of Donald Trump that that is the LAST thing you stand for.
This however is a direct lie, claiming I said, in quotation marks, and against forum rules
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostYou defend all of this by saying "It would make Trump look bad so of course they obstructed justice"....In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Parihaka View PostThankyou for libsplaining what you think I think.
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostThis however is a direct lie, claiming I said, in quotation marks, and against forum rules
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostIt's not a constitutional issue because the impeachment process, as numerous people have pointed out including you and Asti IIRC on my brief review of the forum, is not a court of law.
It is a fishing expedition, looking to dig dirt on the subject, or when/if passed to Senate, the prosecutors, because of the Republican majority.
Hence the Republicans and Trump blocking witnesses wholesale in the house.Originally posted by Parihaka View PostOf course the Republicans are not going to allow any witness who may damage the president.
Originally posted by Parihaka View PostI do stand for the rule of law. Please explain.
And that's just for starters. We could move on to Trump's violation of the Impoundment Control Act, but I doubt it'd be worth my time.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by TopHatter View PostAhhhh, there we go, "libsplaining".
Hence
Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
It's not a constitutional issue because the impeachment process, as numerous people have pointed out including you and Asti IIRC on my brief review of the forum, is not a court of law.
It is a fishing expedition, looking to dig dirt on the subject, or when/if passed to Senate, the prosecutors, because of the Republican majority.
Hence the Republicans and Trump blocking witnesses wholesale in the house.
Hence Pelosi's current reluctance, despite the House operating under urgency, to bring it to the Senate, because she can't block any witnesses the Republicans might chose to subpoena.
Schiff subpoena anyone? Secret witness E************A? How about Joe and Hunter? It could go on for months, they'd be shredded and Pelosi knows it. Her only hope is to keep it in her pocket, trying to conjure up new witnesses to send back to the house, to spin out the yarn.
Of course the Republicans are not going to allow any witness who may damage the president.
It is a political sideshow and is damaging to the Democrat party brand.
Better to focus on how to defeat Trump in the upcoming election than to flail around trying to unseat him by other means.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostYou defend all of this by saying "It would make Trump look bad so of course they obstructed justice"....as if that doesn't violate the law six ways from Sunday, starting right here: 2 U.S. Code § 192, “Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers,”
By misrepresenting my comments and placing them out of context, then claiming this"It would make Trump look bad so of course they obstructed justice" as a direct quote when it wasn't you are most definitely libsplaining.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostYou have utterly zero issues with Trump's repeated violations of 2 U.S. Code § 192, “Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers”
And that's just for starters. We could move on to Trump's violation of the Impoundment Control Act, but I doubt it'd be worth my time.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
This is not an explanation of why you deliberately broke forum rules. As I have already requested, please explain.
Like any Trump Kool-Aid drinker you have no defense - and no problem with - Trump's corruption or his obstruction of justice. It's all just fine and dandy to you.
At least have the fucking balls to admit it.“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Originally posted by tbm3fan View PostThat'll be the day... LMAO“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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Trolling, yup.
Originally posted by TopHatter View PostI don't answer to you on forum rules,
Originally posted by TopHatter View Postwhich is really rich of you to complain about, given your own trolling. And, quite frankly, I'm done with you on this subject as well. You talk in circles just as much as Double Edge, although you're not as eloquent about it.
Like any Trump Kool-Aid drinker you have no defense - and no problem with - Trump's corruption or his obstruction of justice. It's all just fine and dandy to you.
At least have the fucking balls to admit it.In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Leibniz
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