2017 American Political Scene

[Parihaka]

Some of the members here who I thought should know better bought into the narrative. Intelligence agencies that should know better bought into the narrative. National security officials who should have known better bought into the narrative.

What does this tell us? It tells us that while our technical, material and operational capabilities have grown tremendously during the past 25 years, primacy has eroded some of our strategic acumen. Now that we are once again entering a multi-polar world, this acumen needs to be sharpened.

I honestly believe it comes down to internal partisanship where many liberals regard conservatives as the great enemy and any external agency or country is simply a weapon to be utilised against American conservatives.

[citanon]

I honestly believe it comes down to internal partisanship where many liberals regard conservatives as the great enemy and any external agency or country is simply a weapon to be utilised against American conservatives.

That's certainly true for some liberals.

[JAD_333]

Latest WSJ/NBC poll: the expected and the unexpected.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/firs...splits-n725621



The good new part for Trump is the "mixed start" stat, especially the yellow bar...(people who voted for other than Trump and HRC or didn't vote at all). Combined with the "great start" stat, the yellow comes out at 56%. The WSJ's take on this is reflected in their headline reporting the poll results. Many Americans Disapprove of Trump but Are Open to His Agenda, Poll Finds
WSJ/NBC News poll shows negative views at a historically high level for a new president but support from a ‘critical middle’

Otherwise, the poll pretty much mirrors what other phone polls are showing

[JAD_333]

Also in today's news is a sobering look at the potential impact of sweeping deportations of undocumented immigrants.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/o...ft-region&_r=0

Let’s be clear: The moral case against President Trump’s plan to uproot and expel millions of unauthorized immigrants is open-and-shut. But what about the economic cost? This is where deeply shameful collides with truly stupid.

The article takes the usual potshots at Trump, some deserved, but makes a good point as to the cost to the economy.

If you do back-of-the-envelope calculations, you’re gonna need a big envelope. The American Action Forum last year estimated that expelling all unauthorized immigrants, and keeping them out, would cost $400 billion to $600 billion, and reduce the gross domestic product by $1 trillion.

So, going back to the first sentence of the article, we seem to face a dilemma: either uphold the rule of law come what may or swallow our pride and bow to economic realities.

[GVChamp]

Also in today's news is a sobering look at the potential impact of sweeping deportations of undocumented immigrants.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/25/o...ft-region&_r=0



The article takes the usual potshots at Trump, some deserved, but makes a good point as to the cost to the economy.



So, going back to the first sentence of the article, we seem to face a dilemma: either uphold the rule of law come what may or swallow our pride and bow to economic realities.

20 seconds of fact-checking:

Although CBP’s UAS program contributes to border security, after 8 years, CBP cannot prove its effectiveness because it has not established verifiable performance measures. In addition, the program has not achieved its expected level of operation. Specifically

However, the unmanned aircraft logged a combined total of 5,102 flight hours, or about 80 percent less than what OAM anticipated. According to OAM, the aircraft did not fly more primarily because of budget constraints, which prevented OAM from obtaining the personnel, spare parts and other infrastructure for operations, and maintenance necessary for more flight hours. Other contributing factors included flight restrictions and weather-related cancellations. OAM does not operate the unmanned aircraft in certain weather conditions, such as thunderstorms, high winds, or when there is cloud cover. Because of these weather-related limitations alone, OAM’s long-term goal of unmanned aircraft operations 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is unrealistic and not attainable.

The DHS did not find "no evidence" that drones don't help, the program is essentially still in a pilot phase and has no useful metrics for performance and is underfunded.

Never trust anything the New York Times writes. They are a propaganda arm of the Progressive Establishment.

[GVChamp]

Do we need Wabbit rules on alternative facts?


Corey Stewart misleadingly says Hillary Clinton, Ralph Northam 'label police as racists'
By Sean Gorman on Tuesday, July 26th, 2016 at 10:08 a.m.

Corey Stewart, Donald Trump’s Virginia campaign chairman, recently laid blame on Democrats for the July 7 sniper shootings that left five Dallas police officers dead and nine wounded.

"Liberal politicians who label police as racists - specifically Hillary Clinton and Virginia Lt. Governor Ralph Northam - are to blame for essentially encouraging the murder of these police officers tonight," Stewart, chairman of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors, wrote in a Facebook post shortly after midnight on July 8.

(The rest of the article points out how this is pure bullshit.)

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/s...inton-ralph-n/

It's right from the horse's mouth. And I am sorry when she said police were racist: she said everyone is racist.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...racist-debate/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INd7Q-ClDvU

Again, Hillary thinks we're all racist. I understand that this is 100% accepted by all Democrats and all liberals, but it's not at all accepted by moderate Conservatives or lower-class whites.

Again, not an alternative fact. It's a fact. Democrats think all whites are implicitly racist and we need government dollars to correct it.

I wouldn't mind anyone believing in this, except that they want to use the federal government to cram bologna down people's throats. Keep it to your own state and only use the Feds if the South brings back Jim Crow. We do not need DC to fight "implicit racial bias," we need the Feds to fight the Segregationists.

I should also add that while I don't think Hillary Clinton is exactly the villain in this picture, she's politically part of the Wrong Side. And it's not just "more funding for police," it's local officials like Baltimore AG Marilyn Mosby engaged in political witch-hunts. God willing she'll be disbarred.
And, no, Democrats are not just responding, the last administration instigated (Trayon Martin is my son!) There are tons of True Believers at the highest level of the Dem Party that believe in this nonsense (comparatively more than believe Socialism is Awesome).

[JAD_333]

Never trust anything the New York Times writes. They are a propaganda arm of the Progressive Establishment.

Agree and disagree. My take on the media is to look at it all and you'll come out with a balanced viewpoint.

In any case, in my post I focused on the dilemma between faithfulness to the rule of law and economic pragmatism. That much the article addressed accurately.

I disregarded the filler stuff meant to demean Trump's immigration policy. Unfortunately, you chose not to. That's too bad, because you are one of the savvier political posters around here.

[snapper]

Interesting stuff, but I fail to see how it proves collusion to hack the DNC, which was the starting point of our exchange. You cite all sorts of connections between Trump and Russians, or Muscovites, as you call them, which you've obviously culled from news reports, and end up with not even a respectable conspiracy theory. I don't believe in conspiracy theories until I have hard evidence from credible sources to back them up.

There are other connections I could mention already in the public domain; ever heard of Aras Agalov? Do your own research so I do not unduly influence you. My point is that a 'one off' connection may be dismissable but this is a President who denies having anything do Moscow or its regime and he is clearly lying; there is a pattern and a pattern means it is not 'coincidence'. Nor has all even I could say come out and your spooks will know far more I.

Perhaps you've been following the story about the FBI telling Reince Priebus that the NYT story about Trump's people meeting often with Russian intelligence agents is inaccurate. The FBI told him the meetings were not often and it's not known if any of the Russians who met with his people were intelligence agents. So, you see, the story may turn out differently than you think.

Actually last Thursday I was in Kyiv and spoke to a friend of mine who is a US citizen and my friend told me that Priebus was asking the FBI to denounce the NYT and other Muscovite related stories. I am not sure if it's true that the FBI have ongoing investigations (as my friend said) or not into these issues but if so it would not seem entirely respectable to ask an agency investigating these issues to denounce their ongoing investigations. I cannot really know what is going in the US full stop and do not have time to keep with every rumour flying around over there but I do have some experience of the Muscovite modus operandi and that it why it stinks to me and many others. The thing about these events are the countless 'coincidences' and lies and that is exactly what is going on here.

I don't choose to accept your conclusion precisely because the data you offer to support it contains a number of allegations and innuendos.

Not worthy of an independent investigation? Just normal? As I said before if I were a US conservative I would be screaming for an investigation if not an impeachment. This is not about party politics but about a lying President and what he has to hide. skywatcher in this thread was entirely correct in my opinion; if Flynn had admitted his calls to the Muscovite Ambassador in the first place and just said "it's my job duh!" he'd still be in his office. Why did he lie? Why has Trump consistently lied? There are too many questions and the denials have proved false. Almost everything in the dossier is now proved correct. But you see no correlation to the DNC hack or the leaks via wikileaks which Trump praised? The American expression regarding ducks seem appropriate. If you wait for a 'smoking gun' you will sometimes find yourself too late and dead.

On this I can agree, if by "we" you mean the US.

I meant the 'west' and what we understand by that; Enlightment values and truth is part of it.

I'm not sure what you gain by this patronizing comment. Just the same, no resume, no matter how impressive, can turn conjecture into something other than what it is.

It was not my intention to sound patronising and I apologise for having done so.

America isn't bound by the Ukraine.

Who said it was?

So you are referencing a fake discussion about an imaginary tape.

There were two as I said. One a video tape and one audio.

A foreigner calling people unpatriotic who don't wish to bankroll the mafia regime in Kiev (shoe fits).

No guns in the election booths during the Ukrainian elections. We have IMF deals and requirements not exclusively US loans or EU loans and have repayed every penny on time.

Yawn. Just part of the judicial hustle.

Why bother with justice right? Forget it - until you are robbed or assaulted - or they come for you. I understand you love the kleptocratic mafia regime in Moscow but seriously why don't you move there?

[tbm3fan]

Again, not an alternative fact. It's a fact. Democrats think all whites are implicitly racist and we need government dollars to correct it.

You can prove that fact I assume by your certainty. Can you give me a link to a poll where it is shown Democrats answered 100% affirmative to that? Or, is this a GVChamp fact as I can think of three people, right off the bat, who do not think "implicit" whatsoever.

[JAD_333]

There are other connections I could mention already in the public domain; ever heard of Aras Agalov? Do your own research so I do not unduly influence you. My point is that a 'one off' connection may be dismissable but this is a President who denies having anything do Moscow or its regime and he is clearly lying; there is a pattern and a pattern means it is not 'coincidence'. Nor has all even I could say come out and your spooks will know far more I.

Trump is not denying that he had interest in doing business in Russia. He had a number of proposals some years ago. What he's saying now is that he has nothing going on in Russia now.

Actually last Thursday I was in Kyiv and spoke to a friend of mine who is a US citizen and my friend told me that Priebus was asking the FBI to denounce the NYT and other Muscovite related stories. I am not sure if it's true that the FBI have ongoing investigations (as my friend said) or not into these issues but if so it would not seem entirely respectable to ask an agency investigating these issues to denounce their ongoing investigations. I cannot really know what is going in the US full stop and do not have time to keep with every rumour flying around over there but I do have some experience of the Muscovite modus operandi and that it why it stinks to me and many others. The thing about these events are the countless 'coincidences' and lies and that is exactly what is going on here.

It's an odd situation. Number 2 guy at DOJ told Priebus (privately, I presume) that the NYT article exaggerated contacts Trump's people had with Russians in that they were not as frequent and as sinister as reported. Priebus apparently wanted the FBI to share that with the public, but the FBI demurred saying the matter was still under investigation. It's a molehill being made into a mountain by outlets like the NYT, which itself should have waited for the investigation to be completed just as it demanded of the administration.

Not worthy of an independent investigation? Just normal?

Of course, there should be an investigation. You seem to be the one rushing to judgement based on alleged connections and innuendos. Can't have your cake and eat it too. What will it be? Accuse Trump now or wait for the investigation to be completed?

I meant the 'west' and what we understand by that; Enlightment values and truth is part of it.

Conservative values are no more anti-Enlightenment than liberal values. Judging by the way liberals are behaving and the absurd things they are saying in reaction to Trump's election and first month in office, I would question just how much liberals value the truth.

It was not my intention to sound patronising and I apologise for having done so.

Thank you.

[DOR]

GVChamp,

So, how do moderates convince conservatives – I’ll leave progressives vs. low-class out of this one – how do mods convince cons that yes, we all – everyone -- have racist tendencies? How do we get to the recognition that it is an evolutionary trait designed to protect us against the unknown, but most important of all . . . that it can it can be overcome, just like other traits? How do we do that?

We talk about the issue, rather than merely denying it exists.
We shout down bad behavior whenever and wherever we encounter it.
We don’t let some states redistrict certain minorities out of the political process, or otherwise deny them their civil and human rights, and we most certainly don’t wait for full-blown Jim Crow laws to make a comeback (psst: we’re already half-way there, as per the ALEX plan: see https://www.alec.org/ and http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed).

One more point: Mocking the murder of a child in Florida – Trayon Martin -- is beneath you, sir.

[Parihaka]

From the "live long enough..." category.

George W Bush is now the Progressives Champion.

[astralis]

citanon,

This disorganization reflects problems with Trump organizations at large. There's a history around this and it is now a significant national vulnerability. I hope McMasters and Mattis start taking the situation in hand ASAP.

this has always been an issue with Trump, and it was already clearly demonstrated during his campaign, let alone the chaos in his first month.

i'm glad McMaster was selected over that buffoon Flynn, but again-- while they can organize things within their own organization and provide some outside influence/structure, the overall cause of the chaos is how Trump runs things. unless Trump cedes autonomy, the best we can hope for is mitigated chaos.

which, from a partisan standpoint, isn't the worst case scenario. as long as the national security state can run tolerably, the chaos will just slowroll or even paralyze the domestic Republican agenda.

[DarthSiddius]

From the "live long enough..." category.

George W Bush is now the Progressives Champion.

People tend to prefer individuals with opinions favourable to their's. It's all relative. For an average liberal, Bush compared to Trump is a lot more favourable while on the other hand he falls short vis-à-vis Obama.

[antimony]

citanon,
this has always been an issue with Trump, and it was already clearly demonstrated during his campaign, let alone the chaos in his first month.

i'm glad McMaster was selected over that buffoon Flynn, but again-- while they can organize things within their own organization and provide some outside influence/structure, the overall cause of the chaos is how Trump runs things. unless Trump cedes autonomy, the best we can hope for is mitigated chaos.

which, from a partisan standpoint, isn't the worst case scenario. as long as the national security state can run tolerably, the chaos will just slowroll or even paralyze the domestic Republican agenda.

While external facing entities and the security infrastructure (States, Defense, DHS, NSA) have somewhat stabilized with stalwarts like Mattis, Tillerson, McMaster and Kelly in place, they have really not locked it all down. A lot of the top posts in these orgs are vacant and nominees have been saying that they are not getting adequate support from the WH.

The internal facing entities seem to be in complete shambles.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...cabinet-235157