Boston Marathon bombings

[DarthSiddius]

I believe it is the same year as when the 25th Amendment to the United States Constitution was enacted. :whome:

[1980s]

Something like 20% of the population of Chechenya died in the Chechen wars. Grozny was flattened by the Russians - killing 20,000 odd Russian civilians who couldn't flee. Last I heard there was a mafiocracy loyal to Moscow running the show. Revenge has been exacted and will continue to be exacted.

Exactly. That two Chechens probably (and by probably i mean the investigation isnt over, tho the drama apparently is) committed this crime does not in any way make Russia a 'good guy' in all of this should it turn out that the motive has anything to do with the conflict in Chechnya. In the wider scheme of things Russia is still the bad guy, as bad if not worse than the Chechen Islamists. Terrorism and Islamic extremism emanating out of Chechnya since the end of the 90s is a reactionary backlash to a history of Russian occupation and aggression against the Chechen people. That over the past 15 or so years many Chechens have sought to take refuge in an Islamic identity (a type of Islamic identity that often is not their own but an imported Arabized one) and some going further to become jihadis, is a result of the desperation and trauma that Russia has inflicted upon their entire population for generations. It is not something indicative of their natural societal and cultural evolution. If anything, it is a septic mutation of it caused by Russian aggression and abuses.

Russia of course bears no responsibility in the actions of individuals that decide to murder and commit terrorism in the name of some Chechen or Islamic cause. But IMO they do bear overall responsibility for creating the situation and environment in Chechnya (and across the entire North Caucasus) where such measures are now deemed acceptable retaliatory acts, even attractive and necessary ones. As such, it is in Russia's power (and their responsibility) to seriously and genuinely resolve this conflict once and for all, and it is in the World's interest for Russia to finally do so lest there be more Boston's around World.

[Mihais]

Russia won.Because anyone still fighting has to try terrorism instead of war.Which is several orders of magnitude less lethal than war.Problem solved for a generation or two.
There are no good guys and bad guys.There are our guys and their guys.In this matter,Russia was on our side before we were.And unlike the west,Russia doesn't tries to cozy islamists from time to time.
What is reasonable to expect is more of this.It was a clear victory from their pov.

RIP the victims.

[USSWisconsin]

The Soviets were known for treating terrorists very harshly, I don't know if that carried over to the Russian Fed. I wonder if these terrorists believed the US was an easy and compliant target, where they could "win" - as compared to doing this kind of thing closer to home and facing very serious consequences for their families as well as themselves.

[DonBelt]

But this incident wouldn't have been inspired as part of the Chechen struggle against the Russians- we were nominally on their side, at least morally for a while. This would be more islamist inspired if what we read about Tamerlan and his brother is true. This would be the result of Al-Qaeda aligned groups infiltrating the Chechen conflict to radicalize and recruit Chechens to use against the west.

[1980s]

Id recommend anyone with the time to go over Elizabeth Rubin's NYT Magazine article on the 2nd Chechen war from 2001 mentioned alongside her brief thoughts on the suspected Boston bombers here: Revisiting Chechnya - NYTimes.com

The actual article: 'Only You Can Save Your Sons' - New York Times

[erik]

I'm not sure about anyone here, but I've been seeing these... (I can't even think of a word to describe them because they are so ridiculous,) but these pictures describing conspiracy theories. They are popping up on facebook and twitter.

I can't believe how the hell anyone comes up with these and even worse, how the hell all these people are accepting these theories and other ones and it hasn't even been a week! Mostly college kids, but it sickens me seeing that my generation (I'm 23, nearly 24) just easily goes along with this.


graphic

Spoiler!

This doesn't even include that Glenn Beck is demanding the government to come clean on this "plot", the mystery man on the roof, etc. etc.

[Doktor]

erik,

Recently I have been reading some article about why people tend to lean towards CT.

Long story short, human mind can't accept there is nothing more when simple things are explained in simple ways. "There must more".

If you want to, I will try to find the article, but will take me some time as I download loads of PDFs and haven't catalogued (sp) them yet.

[erik]

Oh I would appreciate it, but don't make it a priority.

I was young when 9/11 happened, I believe 12ish, but I just can't remember if the CTs came out this fast and this ridiculous. I remember first seeing "Loose Change". But with these Boston bombings, it really worries me about how many and how fast they are coming up. Especially when world famous people such as Glenn Beck are totting it to their followers!

[Parihaka]

Yep, so covert and black flag that they are in uniform with company logos, and here they all are, standing directly under a security camera, milling around their van after the explosions with photographers running wild

[Parihaka]

As for how quickly these theories come out

9/11 conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[chanjyj]

If a sane, rational, intelligent person were to do this, we'd be in considerably more trouble. We are fortunate these two were not like that. Anyone who can be convinced that this was a "good" thing to do, is not all there to begin with, IMO. These bastards had some screws loose and a sociopath mentality - youthful foolishness was also a factor. This made them easier to catch, though the effort to catch them was spectacular as well. I believe they had someone who taught them to hate and kill, though they weren't very well trained. Perhaps some evil jihadist cleric is trying to make a name for international Cheznian terrorists - possibly to try and get in on some of those donations that fund other terrorist groups.

I hope they use every means possible to extract information from this vile bastard, they can use this information secretly and not in the trial - then try him for his crimes on the evidence they already have, both in Boston and in Federal court where he'll face death when convicted. It could delay his cremation, but it will be worth it to catch those who controlled him.

I believe, and it is my opinion only that many of these terrorists while not in the right frame of mind are perfectly capable of carrying out better operations. The lack of finesse has nothing to do withs being a sociopath. One can be insane but be perfectly capable of executing complex plans. We just have not seen it.. yet.

I had a thought a long time ago - to create a new thread on planning a terrorist attack. In a sense, it would be a thought provoking exercise and we would learn much from it. We will get to see the viewpoint from the the civilian perspective (what do they think, without any formal training?), the LE viewpoint (how would this be countered?) and finally, the military (goes both ways).

However, due to the wealth of knowledge on this board and the fact the plan would be considerably refined, I believe any sociopath will also pick up something from it. It also seems rather crass in light of the Boston Bombings. If we make the thread viewable to only select forum members we would lose alot of the "civilian contributions". Your thoughts?

But honestly, I would like a good chat on this with anyone. Select a target area, analyse opposition... I don't entirely understand why terrorist operations fail yet. In my eyes, they should succeed.

[Doktor]

Having a deep, thorough thread on that topic on a public forum with WABs' knowledge would be dangerous.

[chanjyj]

Having a deep, thorough thread on that topic on a public forum with WABs' knowledge would be dangerous.

Heck, off-the-bat the 2 idiots should have split up and kept in contact with digital encrypted comms. And I'm not referring to P25 or Tetra which is prohibitively expensive. A MotoTRBO/Hytera (using DMR standard), Kenwoods/ICOM (using NXDN).. a shitload of options. Heck, even regular analogue radio can be encrypted if you have the correct option board fitted in.

Actually, not talking would be even better. Just use FFSK signalling.

[Bigfella]

Exactly. That two Chechens probably (and by probably i mean the investigation isnt over, tho the drama apparently is) committed this crime does not in any way make Russia a 'good guy' in all of this should it turn out that the motive has anything to do with the conflict in Chechnya. In the wider scheme of things Russia is still the bad guy, as bad if not worse than the Chechen Islamists. Terrorism and Islamic extremism emanating out of Chechnya since the end of the 90s is a reactionary backlash to a history of Russian occupation and aggression against the Chechen people. That over the past 15 or so years many Chechens have sought to take refuge in an Islamic identity (a type of Islamic identity that often is not their own but an imported Arabized one) and some going further to become jihadis, is a result of the desperation and trauma that Russia has inflicted upon their entire population for generations. It is not something indicative of their natural societal and cultural evolution. If anything, it is a septic mutation of it caused by Russian aggression and abuses.

Russia of course bears no responsibility in the actions of individuals that decide to murder and commit terrorism in the name of some Chechen or Islamic cause. But IMO they do bear overall responsibility for creating the situation and environment in Chechnya (and across the entire North Caucasus) where such measures are now deemed acceptable retaliatory acts, even attractive and necessary ones. As such, it is in Russia's power (and their responsibility) to seriously and genuinely resolve this conflict once and for all, and it is in the World's interest for Russia to finally do so lest there be more Boston's around World.

Glad you said it, but yes. The rise of Salafism in Chechenya was most definately a response (and a very recent one) to Russian behaviour.

This case, however, appears to have different roots. If I am reading things properly these guys are from the Checben diaspora in Central Asia - remnants of WW2 deportations. Apparently 100+ years of Russian rule still hadn't extinguished their desire not to be ruled by Russia & there was an uprising that threatened to pitch in its lot with the approaching Nazis (like pretty much everyone else in E.Europe - turn out nobody much likes Russian rule. Imagine!). I don't know much about radicalization among the Chechen diaspora, but it isn't exactly a stretch to imagine that Salafist ideas might also have gained a foothold there. I expect that in that coming days & weeks there will be a lot of Russians online pushing the 'See, we told you. See what these people are like. We were right!' barrow. It won't fly.

All that said, it looks like these guys - and especially the older one - became radicalized (perhaps self-radicalized) largely outside that community. There is stil a lot more to learn before we can be certain of what happened here.