Rafale Wins MMRCA Bid

[jlvfr]

That was order of preference, not that they should all be bought.

Oops, sorry :(

[TopHatter]

Oops, sorry :(

:) No worries

[Double Edge]

I don't think India is particularly happy with the Russian arms industry at the moment.

Right with Russia giving the Chinese Sukhois with the same capabilities. So we need better.

Rafale fits the bill as an air superiority fighter.

What i've noticed with tv discussions is retired IAF heads are happy with the PM. Very optimistic.

The bean counters are not. There is more to this deal than just getting the lowest price.

[Oracle]

They would probably get a handful to India to start training with relatively quickly, but I agree that the bulk of any large order would undoubtedly be 5+ years away.

Yes, probably 1 squadron to start with. And I'm assuming deliveries to start by 2020. See, it's a stealth aircraft, it's a future need, not an urgent one.

An assembly line might fly if the order is sufficiently large, but I don't see the US agreeing to a tech transfer the way India wanted from the Rafale deal.

Agreed. Make in India might also not fly very well with the US. Maybe a govt to govt deal is better.

I suspect that political and logistical issues with India buying American aircraft would undoubtedly rear their head as well.

India has been upping defense buys from US over the last couple of years (billions of $ worth). I don't see any political issues, probably logistical.

I'm actually suprised India didn't just order more Su-30MKI rather than Rafale and PAK FA.

Maintenance & logistics issues. Plus what TH has stated. Indian government wants to diversify defense purchases and not rely on a single vendor or country.

[Oracle]

Check my flag?...

No flag displayed.

I think India is stuck. The whole program is now so late, and the AF's needs are so desperate, that outright buy is the only choice to have a new large fighter in a reasonable frame of time. And the Rafale seems to the it.

Correct. The LCA program was to replace the ageing Mig - 21s, and it's seeing no end. Been 32 years since it started. MMRCA was to diversify defense purchase and bolster the strength of the IAF through modern aircraft more capable than LCA/Mig - 21s

[Oracle]

Right with Russia giving the Chinese Sukhois with the same capabilities. So we need better.

Rafale fits the bill as an air superiority fighter.

What i've noticed with tv discussions is retired IAF heads are happy with the PM. Very optimistic.

The bean counters are not. There is more to this deal than just getting the lowest price.

I read somewhere or probably heard that the MKI is better than the MKK? The Russians are playing both sides, they need to make money. The MKI's are being upgraded with Zhuk-AE AESA radars ($2 billion) and willl be called 'Super Sukhois'.

[commander]

What i've noticed with tv discussions is retired IAF heads are happy with the PM. Very optimistic.

The bean counters are not. There is more to this deal than just getting the lowest price.

+1. From what I see in the articles in the daily's vs the general mood expressed by those in IAF are very contrasting. I am pretty sure there is more than that meets the eye in this deal and that is not only financially but on other fields as well. Would someone be kind enough to shed some more light on this ?? i.e why Rafale's are better than the Mig's ?? And why are we still stuck in the Tejas program ?? Why not invest in one stealth fighter R&D which we would need more in the future and concentrate all our resources in them.

[jlvfr]

What i've noticed with tv discussions is retired IAF heads are happy with the PM. Very optimistic.

"Finally, someone makes a decision!!"

No flag displayed.

The heck... sometimes it shows, sometimes not... :confu:

Anyway, I'm Portuguese. As for the 32 years since LCA started: "Hello, this is the Indian army, can we finally have our Arjun please? And while you're at it, can we finally get our artillery selected, please?!"

[Oracle]

+1. From what I see in the articles in the daily's vs the general mood expressed by those in IAF are very contrasting. I am pretty sure there is more than that meets the eye in this deal and that is not only financially but on other fields as well.

Operational needs of the IAF aside, this is rewarding the French for their help during the Kargil war, apart from Israel. We were under sanctions then. If you observe keenly, our defense co-operation with these countries have increased since the Kargil war.

Would someone be kind enough to shed some more light on this ?? i.e why Rafale's are better than the Mig's ?? And why are we still stuck in the Tejas program ?? Why not invest in one stealth fighter R&D which we would need more in the future and concentrate all our resources in them.

Apart from Mig - 29 (4th gen), all other Migs that the IAF have in service are 3rd gen. The Mig - 21s (dogfighter) serviceable life ended long back, but IAF still are using the upgraded version (Bison) for operational needs. Do you remember the media blitzkrieg 'Flying Coffins', probably 10-12 years back. They needed to be replaced, so the idea of an indigenous LCA was conceptualized. We're making progress on the LCA - engines from GE as the indigenous Kaveri engine didn't have enough thrust. The airframe too had issues IIRC, and US helped sorting it out. Now the question is what good would be a 3rd Gen aircraft (LCA) in the age of 5th Gen Stealth and BVR missiles (?), considering LCA Mk II will be available for operational use in 2021-22? Honestly I don't see any gain, apart from maybe shooting down drones or as escorts to the Rafales and the MKIs.

Rafale is 4.5 gen, multi-role, technically superior. And it fills the urgent void left by the Migs, which was supposed to be taken care by the LCA. The IAF also have been using the French Mirage 2000 since the 80s, so training and maintenance won't be that big an issue (I suppose), also note that the Mirage 2000 has a nuclear strike role. The IAF is also upgrading it's fleet of 51 Mirage 2000 ($ 2 billion) to Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2 standard. This probably shows the trust the IAF has in the French company Dassault.

India is investing in 2 stealth fighter programs - PAKFA & AMCA (indigenous).

[Oracle]

The heck... sometimes it shows, sometimes not... :confu:

No worries.

Anyway, I'm Portuguese. As for the 32 years since LCA started: "Hello, this is the Indian army, can we finally have our Arjun please? And while you're at it, can we finally get our artillery selected, please?!"

By the time the DRDO gets its act together and delivers say a 3rd gen product, the whole world had already moved into 4th gen. The forces are also responsible for continuously changing their requirements. Not to speak about the bureaucratic red tape.

[Oracle]

jlvfr - Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm

HAL existing assembly lines need not be stretched. Any Indian private company with 51% stake can partner Dassault.

[jlvfr]

jlvfr - Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm

HAL existing assembly lines need not be stretched. Any Indian private company with 51% stake can partner Dassault.

Interesting. I'll admit ignorance: are there any other companies in India big enough for this job? Even if it ends as join "licence assembly" it's still a tall order.

[lemontree]

By the time the DRDO gets its act together and delivers say a 3rd gen product, the whole world had already moved into 4th gen. The forces are also responsible for continuously changing their requirements. Not to speak about the bureaucratic red tape.

Actually, the army gives its requirements to the DRDO and DRDO promises the moon and gives then a rock dug up from the back yard.
As case in point is the INSAS - Indian Small Arms Systems. They promised us something like the Aug Styr, and look what they gave us - an FN FNC look alike, without the main ability that was promised - a common body with interchangeable barrels for rifle, LMG and carbine.

[Double Edge]

I read somewhere or probably heard that the MKI is better than the MKK? The Russians are playing both sides, they need to make money. The MKI's are being upgraded with Zhuk-AE AESA radars ($2 billion) and willl be called 'Super Sukhois'.

original version was better but the russians violated the agreement and said they cannot discriminate between India & China any longer.

25:50 (here) by Pramit Chaudhuri, Hindustan times.

Sergei ivanov (sukhoi chairman) on public record saying that. Not found a source for it.

"Finally, someone makes a decision!!"

Huh ?

[Oracle]

Interesting. I'll admit ignorance: are there any other companies in India big enough for this job? Even if it ends as join "licence assembly" it's still a tall order.

It's okay. I know it's a tall order, however there are private companies like Reliance, Kalyani, Tata, Mahindra, L&T who have the financial muscle and engineering talent to see it through. Indigenous defense manufacturing was the monopoly of the public enterprises earlier, as such they had zero competition. Now FDI in defence have been hiked to 49% (less IMV), and private players encouraged. The next decade starting 2016 should see some interesting churn outs.