The Kashmir Problem

[subba]

It's just a part of land dispute between China and India。Should I talk about if McMahon line is illegal here？And it's a Territorial agreement about dispute land，does your Territorial agreement is just a toilet paper？I think China have give Enough face to India about it，especially take we just have a war a year earlier into consideration。

The problem with the present Indo- China border is that China is a new neighbour to India. It was Tibet that was India's neighbour for many millenia, India never had a problem with Tibet on the border issue. People could travel Lhasa, Tawang, Thimpu, Ladhak without problems. People could visit Kailash and Mansarover ( Hinduisms holiest of holy spot for millenia, that today lies in Chinese controlled Tibet). No Han has ever stepped foot these regions except in recent past. So whats your locus standii in demonizing the Mac Mohan line?

It was a British attempt at demarcating formal borders between Tibet and India where none was before ever required by the citizens of either side. Moreover neither the Tibetans or the Indians had any problems before the Macmohan line or after it was demarcated.. India would never even keep an Army on the border if Tibet was an independent nation.

The problem with the border and all these petty land grab grab issues has occurred only after the PRC annexed Tibet. Before that Zilch..no problem.

So how about China showing the way with a plebiscite and referendum for Tibetans. We'll see about what border issues crop up after the referendum.

[subba]

Should China hold a plebiscite in every province？

Wow! Full marks for complete and total intellectual dishonesty! You asked me a question on resolutions for plebiscite on Tibet. I gave you one..then you come out with this gem.

I know and most here know exactly what the PRC is capable of. Rolling tanks on people who demand basic freedoms. No wonder you find India's soft approach a sign of weakness. The communist state after all supresses ruthlessly all dissent. When they cannot give a vote to their own mainland citizens, by what yardstick can we expect China to give a plebiscite to the Tibetan people?

Thats why i pointed it's strange that China lectures on India on the plebiscite issue.

[Luke Gu]

The problem with the present Indo- China border is that China is a new neighbour to India. It was Tibet that was India's neighbour for many millenia, India never had a problem with Tibet on the border issue.

A new nation？Tell me which nation Qing belong to？China，or just Qing？Tibet is a part of Qing。

It was a British attempt at demarcating formal borders between Tibet and India where none was before ever required by the citizens of either side.

Just attempt at demarcating formal borders or want make India become bigger？

The problem with the border and all these petty land grab grab issues has occurred only after the PRC annexed Tibet. Before that Zilch..no problem.

Which term of the Chinese Government has acknowledged it？

[Luke Gu]

Thats why i pointed it's strange that China lectures on India on the plebiscite issue.

No China，just a Chinese student。

I know and most here know exactly what the PRC is capable of. Rolling tanks on people who demand basic freedoms.

What's the basic freedoms？

No wonder you find India's soft approach a sign of weakness. The communist state after all supresses ruthlessly all dissent.

India's soft approach a sign of weakness？Do I find one？

When they cannot give a vote to their own mainland citizens, by what yardstick can we expect China to give a plebiscite to the Tibetan people?

Can you tell how many democracy have held a plebiscite to decide if a part of their land should Independent。
I hope China can build a democratic system 。But it seems India isn't a good example to learn。

[subba]

They were foreigners. Manchu's. They were not Han. They made even the Chinese change their dress and shave heads. Neither even that makes Tibet culturally contiguous to Chinese Han culture. Tibetan script is still devanagri. It's religious and doctrinal core still predominantly indic derived. It's people don't recognize Chinese rule and abuse of human rights in Tibet is well documented. Tibet had cultural contiguity with India millenia before the Manchu. No India never had any aspirations to extend it's border into Tibet. The sole credit for that belongs to the Chinese.

So you're asking India to yield areas which have been with us traditionally for millenia. While ones you've held under foreign occupation for a few hundred years at most and possess little to none cultural contiguity with you become inalienable parts that you can justify holding at the barrel of a gun. Great!!

[Luke Gu]

I think I should go to bed。I'll have class tomorrow。As my vacation will end from tomorrow，I don't know if I have time to argue with you guys。Sorry for offence Today。

[Luke Gu]

[QUOTE]They were foreigners. Manchu's. They were not Han. They made even the Chinese change their dress and shave heads. Neither even that makes Tibet culturally contiguous to Chinese Han culture.[QUOTE]
foreigners？China have 56 peoples，don't you know it？China not just belong to Han。

It's people don't recognize Chinese rule and abuse of human rights in Tibet is well documented.

As for human rights，it happened to the whole mainland，not just Tibet。

While ones you've held under foreign occupation for a few hundred years at most and possess little to none cultural contiguity with you become inalienable parts that you can justify holding at the barrel of a gun.

foreign occupation？Does UK move her capital from London to New Delhi after she capture India？Does British begin to learn Hindi after she capture India？

[hammer]

hammer，am I a commie？Is it not funny that all Chinese is commie ？Is it not funny a Chinese Should be responsible for the acts of his government？Is it not funny a American should be more qualified than a Chinese talk about human rights just because he lived in a democratic country？What you really what to say？A Chinese is Not eligible to talk about these questions？

Boy, just be aware of the local history before you talk about it. You know zilch. You don't know the subcontinental history.
Start reading right from the Islamic invasion of India till now. And then if you want to debate about this subject, I am all for it.
Till then, take your moral lessons somewhere else. And dont bring up this UN resolution crap as well.
Pakistan has to vacate POK.
Pakistani's should move out their population out of POK.
Your Govt. has to give back the land that it has illegaly occupied.
Kashmiri Hindu's got to move back to their homes and live there safely, without being butchered.

And then we will talk about plebiscite.

Till then, try to hold a plebiscite in Xinjiang and or Tibet. You know why? those people dont want to be a part of China.

[667medic]

Boy, just be aware of the local history before you talk about it. You know zilch. You don't know the subcontinental history.
Start reading right from the Islamic invasion of India till now. And then if you want to debate about this subject, I am all for it.
Till then, take your moral lessons somewhere else. And dont bring up this UN resolution crap as well.
Pakistan has to vacate POK.
Pakistani's should move out their population out of POK.
Your Govt. has to give back the land that it has illegaly occupied.
Kashmiri Hindu's got to move back to their homes and live there safely, without being butchered.

And then we will talk about plebiscite.

Till then, try to hold a plebiscite in Xinjiang and or Tibet. You know why, those people dont want to be a part of China.

Nicely put there hammer......

[subba]

Can you tell how many democracy have held a plebiscite to decide if a part of their land should Independent。

India already did so. The Muslim league stood on a platform of independent Pakistan and won. Thats how Pakistan and Bangladesh came on the map. 30 million people had to move home, leave land. Millions died. We've been there and done that. We don't want another partition. The horrors of that are too vivid still. Many here have no idea what they are dealing with when they talk of Kashmir. Ironically you certainly would'nt know many areas in present day Pakistan voted against the Muslim league and many who remained in India voted for the league.

[Luke Gu]

You know zilch. You don't know the subcontinental history.
Start reading right from the Islamic invasion of India till now. And then if you want to debate about this subject, I am all for it.

Yes，I must know less than you about the history about subcontinental。That's why I need time to Find Information 。And I can learn from you guys by reading your posts。And how much do I know can make me join this discussion ？When you say XinJing and Tibet isn't a part of China，when you say Qing isn‘t China，how much do you know about it？

Till then, take your moral lessons somewhere else.

Do you read my posts carefully？I say Kashmir should have a plebiscite when The first India-Pakistan War end according to UN resolution，not now。Is it a moral lesson？

Pakistan has to vacate POK.
Pakistani's should move out their population out of POK.
Your Govt. has to give back the land that it has illegaly occupied.

Hammer，you guys say China and Pakistan shouldn't sign the Border Agreement Unless India's entry into it，then tell me what's The significance of the meeting if India join it，a meeting solve Kashmir problem or solve Pakistan and China land dispute。And if India join it，which year Pakistan and China can solve their land dispute？In 1963 or in 2063.And in the agreement，it have claimed it if that land should belong to India，we can negotiate it again。Then tell me，if you're Chinese officer，what you can do for it？Just wait Pakistan and India solve the Kashmir problem and then talk about our Claim of sovereignty about that land。Tell me what's time you and Pakistan can solve Kashmir problem。How long China should wait？46 years have passed since Pakistan and China sign the border agreement。

[Luke Gu]

Can you tell how many democracy have held a plebiscite to decide if a part of their land should Independent。

India already did so. The Muslim league stood on a platform of independent Pakistan and won. Thats how Pakistan and Bangladesh came on the map. 30 million people had to move home, leave land. Millions died. We've been there and done that. We don't want another partition. The horrors of that are too vivid still. Many here have no idea what they are dealing with when they talk of Kashmir. Ironically you certainly would'nt know many areas in present day Pakistan voted against the Muslim league and many who remained in India voted for the league.

I think I ever hear a Indian here say India isn't a nation before England leaving（maybe it's wrong）。Now you guys say India do it。And do India have a plebiscite before Pakistan independence or it's just a result of Elite Conference？（I can't find information about it ）Is it India a democracy before UK leaveing ？

[ambidex]

I think I ever hear a Indian here say India isn't a nation before England leaving（maybe it's wrong）。Now you guys say India do it。And do India have a plebiscite before Pakistan independence or it's just a result of Elite Conference？（I can't find information about it ）Is it India a democracy before UK leaveing ？

Its not a Indian, its an Indian.

No its not wrong, Once winston Churchill(not an Indian) said 'India is as much a country as the Equator'.

The whole effort is to prove India was never an imaginary line drawn on the map.

There is a difference; the way a nation (not state) was made out of many, its not like war of Gods as china may face the same in Tibet.

Have you ever been to The great wall of China (which is not an imaginary line)The land towards which side of that great wall is legitimate Chines territory?

[Luke Gu]

Have you ever been to The great wall of China (which is not an imaginary line)The land towards which side of that great wall is legitimate Chines territory?

Once it is。But history force Chinese to give it up。In the ancient ，Han just want to make China is a nation Belong to the Han。But things is not as what we want ，Although have the Great Wall，when China is weak，other peoples will Across the Great Wall to capture China。After the war again and again，Dynasty collapsed ，and rebuild by Han or other peoples，then China isn't just belong to Han，and China have 56 peoples now。Ming Great Wall is used to prevent the Manchu invasion of China，but it didn't work。Manzu bring a new territory to China。It seems China‘s territory Has never been fixed in different dynasty，maybe that's why China have so many land dispute now.

[subba]

Ming Great Wall is used to prevent the Manchu invasion of China，

Enough said. case closed. :)

Luke, the partition is a very very sensitive subject for many Indians. Many people have lost entire families. It's not anything like Tibet-China. What does any Han know of Kailash and Mansarover? Which Hindu over the last 10000 years has not reverred/ heard or known of Kailash and Mansarover?

It's good to find out about it. But you seem to already have made your mind up. Even when presented with facts you go back to square one.

Well lets go back then 4th Century in the words of a Chinese traveller..

After traveling for seventeen days, about 1,500 le, they arrived at the country of Shan-shan, today's Lop-Nor, which was a thriving oasis at that time. Fa-hsien reports:
"This land is rugged and barren...The king of this country has received the Faith, and there are some four thousand and more priests, all belonging to the Lesser Vehicle, but all practice the religion of India".

Travels of Fa-Hsien