2017 American Political Scene

[Bigfella]

i am almost certain that had Obama had even half of the issues that Trump has had with respect to Russia, we'd have seen no-kidding armed insurrection from all the unhinged militia units by now.

I remember the good old days when all it took was Obama going on TV to talk to schoolchildren to set off nation wide bouts of hysteria. Then there was 2015 when the Governor of Texas actually deployed the Texas State Guard to monitor a military exercise.

Now, the DOJ requests the IP addresses of 1.3 million visitors to anti-Trump websites and there is a deafening silence. Even the request for voter data from all the states has received remarkably little reaction from the same people who saw 'death camps' everywhere (though some GOP states have at least responded as they might have under Obama).

Yet another useful reminder how little of this BS has anything to do with the Constitution, principles, standards, national security or patriotism. Its just 100% politics.

[DOR]

I don't now if Stormfront is "Right-wing militia terrorism". AFAIK, they are a forum where they talk smack about other races and try to create (and fail) lists for businesses they can boycott because they are owned or managed by jews and other minorities.

Wikipedia: According to a 2014 two-year study by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)'s Intelligence Report, registered Stormfront users have been disproportionately responsible for some of the most lethal hate crimes and mass killings since the site was put up in 1995. In the five years leading up to 2014, Stormfront members murdered nearly 100 people. Of these, 77 were massacred by one Stormfront user, Anders Behring Breivik, a Norwegian terrorist who perpetrated the 2011 Norway attacks.

[Mihais]

Fundamentally untrue. All the US/NATO 'forward deployment' of the current measures were in place or planned before Trumpet, much of it in Breedloves time. Ukraine has received nothing in hardware since Trumpet's election - only what was contracted before continues to arrive. My friend, I too am a patriot in our part of the world but you are mistaken with defending this idiot and traitor Yank President. He ends either running to Moscow or in prison.

Or on Mount Rushmore :) You have leaders all over the region getting frantic about arming.You have Mattis talking about ATGM's in Kiev.As for judging leaders,there is simple criteria,old since at least Machiavelli:you look at his advisors.Trump's are men of judgement and strong character.Even those some may not like bc of their policies.

[Mihais]

Wikipedia: According to a 2014 two-year study by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)'s Intelligence Report, registered Stormfront users have been disproportionately responsible for some of the most lethal hate crimes and mass killings since the site was put up in 1995. In the five years leading up to 2014, Stormfront members murdered nearly 100 people. Of these, 77 were massacred by one Stormfront user, Anders Behring Breivik, a Norwegian terrorist who perpetrated the 2011 Norway attacks.

First of all,you and your pal don't quite understand what you're talking about.Individual acts are by their very nature not political.Political actions,including violence, require a consensus of a group.Thus,one idiot killing people does not a policy make.People killing because it's what Allah ordered,however does make it an act of war(itself a form of politics) because it is sanctioned by somebody else.


Second,I love it when you go over the top.Yeah,baby,please tell me more about Stormfront murders.Perhaps you could cite their policy of murder.Alas,you cannot.Reason 1-it was inexistent.Reason 2-AQ did not managed to change the Internet.ISIS did not.But lefty activists finally did it.You shut down sites.Now is the ''Nazi'' ones.Tomorrow we will see what a Nazi mutates into.So your side will shut it down as well.Congrats,you are now the face of censorship and oppression.Because free speech=hate speech(Orwellian term which means crap to me).

It happened that a long time ago I was reading the sources,both far left and right.I don't need interest groups like SPLC to tell me who to like or dislike.You can find all sorts of nutters,but also articulate and intelligent ones.The proportion of nutters is higher on the lefty side.The proportion of those who can write their own native language is far higher on the right.

But since you think that anonymous association means murderous politics,I am more than glad to associate you and your pals with the 100 millions victims of Leftist efforts to make the world a such good place.

[Bigfella]

Wikipedia: According to a 2014 two-year study by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)'s Intelligence Report, registered Stormfront users have been disproportionately responsible for some of the most lethal hate crimes and mass killings since the site was put up in 1995. In the five years leading up to 2014, Stormfront members murdered nearly 100 people. Of these, 77 were massacred by one Stormfront user, Anders Behring Breivik, a Norwegian terrorist who perpetrated the 2011 Norway attacks.

I'm not sure that is as convincing as you seem to think it is DOR. Stormfront is one of the largest websites in the world. Over that 5 year period it could easily have had 250,000+ members/users. Currently it has close to 300,000, and that isn't counting former members like Brevik & some of the others who are among the killers counted in the '100 killed' figure. One of those 250,000+ killed 77 people. Representatives of the remaining 250,000+ killed 5 people a year. Many of those crimes were not 'hate' crimes by any measure.

I'm not sure how many murders a year an average cross section of 250,000 white men aged 18-55 (the overwhelming SF demographic) with similar socioeconomic classification would commit, but 5 per year doesn't seem extraordinary. Maybe 20 is, but Brevik is pretty much the definition of 'statistical outlier'. Its a pretty shaky case for 'terrorism'.

SF is a vile website for vile people. It encourages these vile people to think in some pretty vile ways. It glorifies vile behavior. None of this makes it 'terrorist'. Not even close.

[DOR]

First of all,you and your pal don't quite understand what you're talking about.Individual acts are by their very nature not political.Political actions,including violence, require a consensus of a group.Thus,one idiot killing people does not a policy make.People killing because it's what Allah ordered,however does make it an act of war(itself a form of politics) because it is sanctioned by somebody else.


Second,I love it when you go over the top.Yeah,baby,please tell me more about Stormfront murders.Perhaps you could cite their policy of murder.Alas,you cannot.Reason 1-it was inexistent.Reason 2-AQ did not managed to change the Internet.ISIS did not.But lefty activists finally did it.You shut down sites.Now is the ''Nazi'' ones.Tomorrow we will see what a Nazi mutates into.So your side will shut it down as well.Congrats,you are now the face of censorship and oppression.Because free speech=hate speech(Orwellian term which means crap to me).

It happened that a long time ago I was reading the sources,both far left and right.I don't need interest groups like SPLC to tell me who to like or dislike.You can find all sorts of nutters,but also articulate and intelligent ones.The proportion of nutters is higher on the lefty side.The proportion of those who can write their own native language is far higher on the right.

But since you think that anonymous association means murderous politics,I am more than glad to associate you and your pals with the 100 millions victims of Leftist efforts to make the world a such good place.

Mihais,

I don’t know who “your pal” or "your pals" is supposed to be, but I do know that individual acts can be, and in the context of this discussion frequently are political in nature. Political action does not require a group, let alone a consensus. Killing someone isn’t making policy, but it may be making revolution, making a statement or making a martyr.

I’m not sure where you get some of your ideas, particularly the more insulting ones. Please cite some sources once in a while.

And, I note neither you nor Bigfella went one inch beyond Stormfront. Can no one raise any questions whatsoever about all of the others listed there?

And, by the way where is that alt-left violent list?

[Mihais]

On the other hand, I can tell you that there have been very recent and vivid instances of political violence that each occurred within about 10 minutes of where I live, and in which cases I do in fact know people affected and involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overla...enter_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_O...ansas_shooting

In each case a right wing nut tried to make a political statement by executing innocent people in public. And in each case the idiots completely failed to even target the group they were so upset with.

My personal experiences don't jive with your assertion at all.

Mihais,

I don’t know who “your pal” or "your pals" is supposed to be, but I do know that individual acts can be, and in the context of this discussion frequently are political in nature. Political action does not require a group, let alone a consensus. Killing someone isn’t making policy, but it may be making revolution, making a statement or making a martyr.

I’m not sure where you get some of your ideas, particularly the more insulting ones. Please cite some sources once in a while.

And, I note neither you nor Bigfella went one inch beyond Stormfront. Can no one raise any questions whatsoever about all of the others listed there?

And, by the way where is that alt-left violent list?

The fellow above.And his experience.

As for ''yours'',that is the entire left spectrum,of which Communism is part of.Is playing the game by your rules,which in this case means guilt by association.
The list you ask for in this case would really be something monumental in size.

You are correct that lefty killers of the last 30 years are 4 times fewer than rightist killers.But that's not what we're talking about.

As for violence,I bet you watched the news about lefty activists attacking anyone not on their side since last year.That is group enabled violence vs political opponents.And is not only the group itself.It is a rather widespread phenomenon.It has backing from Democratic leadership end officials,sometimes tacit,sometimes explicit,like it happened at C-ville when police was absent.A fistfight may not seem much compared to murder.But the list of individual acts you quoted had no political effect and cause.KKK 60 years ago may be an exception to that but that's irrelevant today.Ruling the street with force,attacking rallies,blocking the right of travel etc... is political violence in its truest form.
Then you have active persecution,like shutting down free speech(see the Stormfront case,nasty as it may be,they still had rights) and efforts to destroy the lives of individual members of the right by left wing activist groups.

Dude,sorry to tell ya,but what is going on right now in your country resembles a lot to what happened in every nation touched by communism in the very early stages.You may think different,that you are exceptional,that is not the case,that is not communism(true,in ideological terms,old commie were a bit different than modern lefties,but the method is what matters).Just read some history(not generalist one,but some that goes into details).

p.s You are correct,of course that individual killings may be part of revolution,insurrection etc... But none of those was the case.There was no group policy that stood behind those induvidual murders.There was no goal to achieve.

pps What do you consider insulting?

[Bigfella]

And, I note neither you nor Bigfella went one inch beyond Stormfront. Can no one raise any questions whatsoever about all of the others listed there?

And, by the way where is that alt-left violent list?

OK, first, please don't lump me in with Mihais on any grounds. Its insulting and it confuses any point you are trying to make. You are better than that. he & I are the same species. That is as close as it gets.

Second, I addressed the Stormfront issue because I think you were wrong & you chose a poor piece of 'proof' to back it up. You are a very intelligent person and I'm pretty sure that you can see the flaws in the SPLC article. It barely supports its own claims & it doesn't support yours. Stormfront is many things, none of them good. 'Terrorist' isn't among them.

I didn't go through your list in detail, but the rest seemed more or less on target to me. You made some good points and then undermined some of them by overclaiming on Stormfront and getting defensive when you got called on it. Admitting when you make a mistake will add a lot more to the force of your points than doggedly defending points that are questionable at best.

I don't recall ever mentioning a 'alt-left' list, so I don't know why that was addressed to me. There is no such thing as the 'alt-left' so a list would be hard to produce.

I do have VERY strong views on Antifa and other 'black bloc' type groups. The are a blight on progressive activism. They are nasty little thugs who hijack and often wreck legitimate protests in a relentless hunt for publicity. They are violent adolescent cowards jacked up on failed revolutionary ideas. They are not the direct equivalent of the KKK or Nazis, but that is only because they haven't started murdering people...yet. I have had numerous personal interactions with them at demonstrations & elsewhere. I detest them. They are one of the main reasons I rarely attend protests - I got sick of having my presence defined by these shitstains. They also give the right an opportunity to dismiss legitimate protest & label good people as bad simply because they inhabit the same space - we saw some stellar examples of how this works on these very boards.

[Mihais]

OK, first, please don't lump me in with Mihais on any grounds. Its insulting and it confuses any point you are trying to make. You are better than that. he & I are the same species. That is as close as it gets.

Truly honored.In a Churchillian way. :))

[snapper]

you look at his advisors.Trump's are men of judgement and strong character.Even those some may not like bc of their policies.

Manafort, Roger Stone, Carter Page, Flynn, Felix Sater, Aras Algarov... etc etc... If I were to judge him solely on this criteria I would be forced to conclude he was working (knowingly or not) for Moscow.

[Mihais]

We talked this a while ago.You had this same argument back then,while I wanted to work with the guy.Since then Moscow's relations with DC has taken blow after blow.While US companies sign a new defense contract with our Gov every 2 months and Ukraine has been sent stronger signals than Obama dared to think of.
Even if all those on the list were Russian agents and I have doubts over Flynn at least,they are now gone. And I think you judge people in a very radical way.There is hardly black and white,but no shortage of maskirovka and duplicity in the game.Judging results,looking again and again for proof and using the to past to show the future seems a safer method than pointing fingers.

The only good think about Obama's foreign policy was the treaty with Iran and it is hardly a show of strength.The rest is too little,too late or not giving a damn.Trump is solid so far.Yes,most programs were started or considered during Obama's tenure,but Trump could have easily foiled them or make them look irrelevant.He did nothing but encourage and expand,while what he said in Warsaw hs the potential to become historic.

Frankly speaking,if I were SVR,I'd feed you with disinformation about Trump.Like any good disinformation it needs enough truth to look credible.And needs not to convince,but enough to create doubt and dissent.
The Americans are the only ones with an interest in our area.It is not goodness of heart,of course,but geopolitics at its truest form.So work with them and keep your cards close.

[snapper]

First Trump is an idiot and has been played by Moscow if nothing else. Second they specifically altered the GOP policy at the Republican National Convention (at which Kislyak was a guest); "providing lethal defensive weapons [to Ukraine]" was amended "providing appropriate assistance". This was Trump - nobody else. Given all the contacts his 'advisers' had with Moscow, the offer of dirt on Clinton (aka 'adoption issue talks'), the fact that there were that many Moscow linked people in the Trump campaign and the fact that Trump was at the time actively pursuing building hotel in Moscow (as has recently come out, though Peskov denies he replied to Cohen's letter) they made it very difficult for Trump NOT to accept their enticements.

This was an intelligence op all the way. I suspect you know as well as I just who makes an ideal target for such ops; greedy egotists with a public profile who have no common (or moral sense) and our just out for themselves. Putin's flattery was geared to this and Trump was clearly courting it (take his tweet from the Miss Universe do about Putin becoming his new "best friend"). Trump was an ideal target - Yanukovych and Orban were co-opted in much the same way. Whether Trump knowingly and willingly accepted these enticements doesn't matter - if he didn't see it for what it was he was an idiot but perhaps all his Moscow linked 'advisors' told him that "hey they are just really generous guys in Moscow". Point is he is deeply compromised especially when he kept denying any contacts of links to Moscow. Suppose Moscow had threatened to reveal the meeting with Trump Jnr? What is public knowledge is less harmful than what is hidden which makes all the denials which have subsequently proved to be lies harmful and stupid... unless he did willingly do a deal and is trying to hide the deeper crime of betrayal. There is now pretty good prima facie evidence that he is trying to cover up something - sacking Comey was about the Muscovite inquiry as the idiot himself admitted so it is obstruction in itself. Now it appears he may try to pardon anyone that Mueller goes after, perhaps including himself or his family!

I do not care if he right wing or left wing; he is a traitor and useless at this game. He has to go. Bush was a fool though in general a well meaning one who got landed with a catastrophe - he looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul - how sweet. He got fooled; there is no soul, there is a KGB calculator. Obama was an idiot; didn't trust the Muscovite despot but thought he could do a deal, didn't end so well for Syria or Ukraine. Both were better than a deeply compromised traitor.

[DOR]

The fellow above.And his experience.

As for ''yours'',that is the entire left spectrum,of which Communism is part of.Is playing the game by your rules,which in this case means guilt by association.
The list you ask for in this case would really be something monumental in size.

You are correct that lefty killers of the last 30 years are 4 times fewer than rightist killers.But that's not what we're talking about.

As for violence,I bet you watched the news about lefty activists attacking anyone not on their side since last year.That is group enabled violence vs political opponents.And is not only the group itself.It is a rather widespread phenomenon.It has backing from Democratic leadership end officials,sometimes tacit,sometimes explicit,like it happened at C-ville when police was absent.A fistfight may not seem much compared to murder.But the list of individual acts you quoted had no political effect and cause.KKK 60 years ago may be an exception to that but that's irrelevant today.Ruling the street with force,attacking rallies,blocking the right of travel etc... is political violence in its truest form.
Then you have active persecution,like shutting down free speech(see the Stormfront case,nasty as it may be,they still had rights) and efforts to destroy the lives of individual members of the right by left wing activist groups.

Dude,sorry to tell ya,but what is going on right now in your country resembles a lot to what happened in every nation touched by communism in the very early stages.You may think different,that you are exceptional,that is not the case,that is not communism(true,in ideological terms,old commie were a bit different than modern lefties,but the method is what matters).Just read some history(not generalist one,but some that goes into details).

p.s You are correct,of course that individual killings may be part of revolution,insurrection etc... But none of those was the case.There was no group policy that stood behind those induvidual murders.There was no goal to achieve.

pps What do you consider insulting?

Mihais,

OK, so what is it that makes you think I'm some fellow traveler with the alt-left? It's about as solidly supported as your other claims, which is to say not at all.

The people and groups I listed committed murder. They didn't get on that list for slugging someone.

That includes Stormfront, and the people I listed who affiliate with it.

Communism? I've been at the coalface of communism most of my life. Don't tell me about communism.

Bigfella,

I can only offer my sincere apologies for implying that you share some ideology or even tactics with Mihais. Mea Culpa.

The request for a list was directed at Mihais, who seems to think that "they're all the same."

[Bigfella]

Bigfella,

I can only offer my sincere apologies for implying that you share some ideology or even tactics with Mihais. Mea Culpa.

The request for a list was directed at Mihais, who seems to think that "they're all the same."

No worries. :-)

There are a handful of groups on the left who are comparable to nasty right wing groups (AntiFa/Black Bloc types, Communists), but they are fewer in number and a lot less deadly. I admire your perseverance with Mihais, but I suspect you are wasting your time.

[snapper]

As for this whole business about unregistered kids who came from abroad I feel a duty to speak for an old friend. She was one of these "Dreamers"; a Croat originally I think. She was in our online game guild - one of the VP's you were allowed - that is how I knew her at first. Turned out this Lady had got a thing for maths - had done it at school in the US and amazed her teachers and she wanted to go Cambridge (England) to do her degree in Maths. Well Cambridge was my alma mater so obviously I was keen on the idea. One way or another we sorted that and she went to Cambridge, took the oath to Her Majesty in the end. Now I believe teaching back in Croatia. US lost her. Your loss; Europe's gain.