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  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory

    By Charles C.W. Cooke December 9 at 8:00 AM

    Each week, In Theory takes on a big idea in the news and explores it from a range of perspectives. This week we’re talking about gun ownership. Need a primer? Catch up here.

    Charles C. W. Cooke is a staff writer at National Review and the author of “The Conservatarian Manifesto.”

    When debating the wisdom of the Constitution’s Second Amendment, the media tends to start from the presumption that the question is purely scientific, and that the answers can — and should — be derived from statistical analyses and relentless experimentation. This approach is mistaken. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is not the product of the latest research fads or exquisitely tortured “data journalism,” but a natural extension of the Lockean principles on which this country was founded. It must be protected as such.

    The Declaration of Independence presumes that all men enjoy certain inalienable rights, among them “life” and “liberty.” Practically speaking, at both the state level (as a bulwark against tyranny) and at the individual level (as a means by which to protect oneself), this necessitates the auxiliary right to the private ownership of “arms,” which, in the common law that preceded the Second Amendment, was understood to include personal weapons that could be wielded by an individual — such as the “musket and bayonet”; “sabre, holster pistols, and carbine”; and sundry “side arms.”

    [Other perspectives: America is only pretending to regulate lethal firearms.]

    At the time of the American founding, it was widely understood that there was a real danger in a government’s attempting to deprive the people of what Alexander Hamilton called their “original right of self-defense.” This is why, when it came to writing the Constitution, the anti-Federalists, who feared the government’s potential to become corrupt, refused to sign on to a more powerful national government until they had been promised certain explicit protections. Then, as now, their logic was clear: It makes no sense to allow the representatives of a free people to disarm their masters.

    Reacting to this argument, we often hear advocates of gun control propose that the Founders’ observations are irrelevant because they could “not have imagined the modern world.” I agree with the latter assertion: They couldn’t have. As well-read in world history as they were, there is no way that they could have foreseen just how prescient they were in insisting on harsh limitations of government power. In their time, “tyranny” was comparatively soft — their complaints focused on under-representation and the capricious restriction of ancient rights. In the past century, by contrast, tyranny involved the systematic execution of entire groups and the enslavement of whole countries. The notion that if James Madison had foreseen the 20th century he would have concluded that the Bill of Rights was too generous is laughable.

    Nor could the Founders have imagined the entrenched tyranny that would arise in their own country. Washington, Jefferson, Madison and Company were hypocrites, certainly — like so many at the time they spoke of equality and liberty while indulging slavery — but the generation that met at Philadelphia did at least consider that the institution would die out peacefully. Instead, it was abolished only by bloody force, and then transmuted into something almost as abhorrent.

    [Mass shootings are distracting from the real danger of guns in America]

    Conservatives who are scared of tyrants often ask, “Could it happen here?” Well, it did. Jim Crow, the KKK, lynching, legal segregation — for a period, the South was everything a free man should fear. When Ida B. Wells noted that “a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home, and it should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give,” she was confirming an age-old truth: The gun is a great equalizer, and the state a capricious beast.

    Does everyone who uses a firearm to protect himself survive? Of course not. But as a free man, I do not consider my inalienable rights to be contingent upon my ability to exercise them successfully. I may debate freely, even if I am destined to lose the argument. I may enjoy a jury trial even if I am guilty. And I may defend my life and my liberty even if I eventually succumb.

    It is from this understanding that all conversations must proceed. The Second Amendment is not “old”; it is timeless. It is not “unclear”; it is obvious. It is not “embarrassing”; it is fundamental. And, as much as anything else, it is a vital indicator of the correct relationship between the citizen and the state and a reminder of the unbreakable sovereignty of the individual. Unless those calling for greater restrictions learn to acknowledge this at the outset of any public discussion, they will continue to get nowhere in their deliberations.
    I agree partly with this editorial, but absolutely with the bold part.

    Our volunteer military IS the citizen militia of our modern times, and with the military, we can see two problems around the world:

    First, those who volunteer for military service in a society tend to be some of its most daring and aggressive members. Time and again, in many societies around the world, the relationship between those who see it as their place to keep order and defend society and average citizen who wishes for safety and liberty have been distorted until the former began to seek domination over the latter. We see this in our own society today via the constant tension over police powers and police conduct.

    Second, in highly developed modern societies, there tends to be diminishing political support for defense and declining participation in military service over time. We see this today in the societies of our allies in the developed world.

    Thus, the 2nd Amendment provides for the development and constancy of the American character and serves as a bulwark against both problems. It ensures support for strong defense and supplies our peace loving society with a core cadre of defenders via generations of gun ownership and the perpetuation of a vibrant gun culture, while also ensuring that those defenders will have invested, from a very early age, their very identities in the protection of individual freedoms and rights via the inextricable linkage of power and authority (2nd amendment) with amendments protecting free speech and civil liberties in the Bill of Rights.

    The founders could not have imagined the modern society, but their deep and multifaceted wisdom has transcended time and change.
    Last edited by citanon; 09 Dec 15,, 20:52.

    Comment


    • citanon,

      The Bill of Rights unites those who believes in the pen via the 1st Amendment with those who believe in the gun via the 2nd. Without BOTH in the Constitution, over time those who see it as their place to keep order and defend society may get into an adversarial mindset against the average citizen who wishes for safety and liberty. We have seen this time and again in other societies around the world, and we see this constant tension in our own society here today in the US via the struggle over police powers. The 2nd Amendment is our insurance against the accentuation of this conflict and distortion of our society into a police state.

      The 2nd Amendment provides for the development and constancy of the American character, supplies our peace loving society with its most courageous defenders, and ensures that those defenders will have their very identities invested in protecting the freedom and rights of individuals via the intimate and concrete linkage of liberty (1st) with political and personal power (2nd) in a single document.
      this is one of the "pinnacle" arguments against gun control of any sort, but frankly I think it's one of the weakest ones. (I say this as a gun owner, BTW.)

      how much did the 2A assist blacks from being oppressed, or discriminated against, both by other Americans and by the federal government? how much did the 2A assist Japanese-Americans from being interned by the government? how about fairly egregious violations of the 1st amendment in the Alien and Sedition Acts of WWI and in WWII, or the Mccarthy witch hunt?

      actually, one of the darkly amusing things regarding the recent hubbub over police powers is how many of the very people who otherwise talk about "abuse of government power" and being suspicious of police...almost instinctively embraced "blue lives matter" against perceived thuggery. would conservatives say that minorities should be better armed to protect against police abuse? I doubt it...
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
        citanon,



        this is one of the "pinnacle" arguments against gun control of any sort, but frankly I think it's one of the weakest ones. (I say this as a gun owner, BTW.)

        how much did the 2A assist blacks from being oppressed, or discriminated against, both by other Americans and by the federal government? how much did the 2A assist Japanese-Americans from being interned by the government? how about fairly egregious violations of the 1st amendment in the Alien and Sedition Acts of WWI and in WWII, or the Mccarthy witch hunt?

        actually, one of the darkly amusing things regarding the recent hubbub over police powers is how many of the very people who otherwise talk about "abuse of government power" and being suspicious of police...almost instinctively embraced "blue lives matter" against perceived thuggery. would conservatives say that minorities should be better armed to protect against police abuse? I doubt it...
        So...something didn't work as planned. Let's get rid of it so it'll work better.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

        Comment


        • the point is that "2A as the best and final argument against tyranny" seems to be weak and not supported by history, either ours or in fellow democracies.

          there's good reasons to protect the right of gun ownership, that's just not one of them.
          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            the point is that "2A as the best and final argument against tyranny" seems to be weak and not supported by history, either ours or in fellow democracies.

            there's good reasons to protect the right of gun ownership, that's just not one of them.
            Don't need an excuse. It's a right under the Constitution.

            Why don't we question 1A? Why can't congress make laws regarding the establishment of a religion? Europeans do it. I thought we want to be more like Europe.
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              the point is that "2A as the best and final argument against tyranny" seems to be weak and not supported by history, either ours or in fellow democracies.

              there's good reasons to protect the right of gun ownership, that's just not one of them.
              Not sure you're taking the right view here. The English Revolution and the American Revolution both would've never gotten off the ground without civilian ownership of weapons. If your bar is "perfect social justice as envisioned by Star Trek," then no, the Second Amendment will not get you there.
              "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

              Comment


              • Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                I'm not against any of those measures as long as you approve the following:

                Are you for or against a background check at the voting booth? Of course this background check has a nominal cost, say....$19, to administer the system.
                Should we strip mental patients the right to vote without due process?
                Should there be a voting permit for people to vote? Of course one has to take a 30 question test to and pay a $25 fee (for the administration) to obtain this permit. These questions aren't hard, just basic civic knowledge of the United States political system.
                There is a voter's registry already so I'm ok with that.

                In addition, at the voting booth, one must fill out a form stating one's full name, address, county and state spelled out in full, no abbreviations, and state that one is not a criminal or any other person ineligible to vote, sign and date, before being handed a ballot. One must also present a photo ID and 2 documents to prove residency. A United States passport does not count as proof of residency. A cell phone bill is not a proof of residency. It must be a car registration or cable/utility bill.

                Now get this, California just passed a law that automatically registers anyone who applies/renews a driver's license to vote. California also issues driver's license to illegal immigrants. Thoughts?
                As I have advocated many times before, I respect gun rights and voting right. Part of respecting and upholding rights is the notion that the right should be denied to those who do not deserve them. Felon, mental patients should not be allowed to own guns. non citizens should be allowed to vote. Citizens should not be allowed to vote more than once.

                However, instead of creating rules and regulations at the whim of local elected officials, voter registration and identification should be broad based, use transparent rules and make an effort to reach out to everyone eligible. As long as that is done, I am fine with the concept of voter registration. India has nailed this process, the US has not.

                The measures that you are talking about are inefficient to the extreme. To see the flip side, background checks for guns should not be the painful process that it is today. We have apps and digital id cards for chrissake, why should the FFL have to CALL an FBI number and be put on hold? Why do we accept a non answer, which adds a delay of 5 days to the process, where it takes seconds to validate against a database?
                "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  citanon,



                  this is one of the "pinnacle" arguments against gun control of any sort, but frankly I think it's one of the weakest ones. (I say this as a gun owner, BTW.)

                  how much did the 2A assist blacks from being oppressed, or discriminated against, both by other Americans and by the federal government? how much did the 2A assist Japanese-Americans from being interned by the government? how about fairly egregious violations of the 1st amendment in the Alien and Sedition Acts of WWI and in WWII, or the Mccarthy witch hunt?

                  actually, one of the darkly amusing things regarding the recent hubbub over police powers is how many of the very people who otherwise talk about "abuse of government power" and being suspicious of police...almost instinctively embraced "blue lives matter" against perceived thuggery. would conservatives say that minorities should be better armed to protect against police abuse? I doubt it...
                  it didn't work against those things because the great majority of the country did not see those things as tyranny. the 2nd amendment prevents certain types of tyranny, and is essential for that reason, but that doesn't mean its a panacea.

                  it's like saying that the flu vaccine is not useful because it doesn't defeat meningitis. while meningitis is bad, you really don't want to GE the flu and meningitis at the same time.

                  In that vein, what 2A did do for those causes is to protect the political process so that reforms or corrective action happened when country changed its sentiment.

                  regarding police abuse, there are actually many conservatives who are worried about police abuse and police attempts to restrain ownership of fire arms, but that is different fROM the extremist position of taking on the police with guns, which is a red herring.

                  You do, however, see the NRA cheering encouragement of of gun ownership and concealed carry by minorities.
                  Last edited by citanon; 10 Dec 15,, 01:57.

                  Comment


                  • NRA, GOP Gun Disinformation Completely Debunked by these Maps, Charts

                    Yes, people kill people. But guns and laws make a huge difference in how many people get killed and the data clearly demonstrates the NRA and Republican narrative is myth-based fantasy, not fact-based reality.
                    *
                    By Brian E. Frydenborg Dec 5, 2015 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nra-g...ian-frydenborg

                    Like any dangerous product — cars, airplanes, explosives — sensible regulation of guns clearly plays a positive role in reducing both misuse of this product and the number of deaths resulting from such misuse. The map itself was part of a scholarly study*by researchers from Boston Children's Hospital and published this March in JAMA Internal Medicine.

                    [The map didn't reproduce. It shows high levels of gun deaths in mostly red states, lower levels in mostly blue states. Go the the URL above to see it. -- DOR]

                    The map is not without exceptions and outliers, but the general trend is clear: States with more gun regulations had lower rates of gun deaths, and states with less gun laws had higher gun death rates, both in terms of suicide and homicide. That's certainly not the message we get from the National Rifle Association (NRA) or from gun-rights advocates.
                    Trust me?
                    I'm an economist!

                    Comment


                    • I suspect (but don't know) that if we had a map showing where in LA County the homicides were committed, we'd see that this behavior is concentrated in certain small neighborhoods. Then Irvine might not appear to be an anomaly in comparison to similar neighborhoods in LA County.

                      When discussing gun control, we also must keep in mind that guns are way down the list of weapons used in actual homicides. In real life, hammers are used several times more frequently than firearms to kill people.

                      And, in real life, when a city bans guns for its private citizens, violent crimes soar. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been an exception to that.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sanjac View Post
                        I suspect (but don't know) that if we had a map showing where in LA County the homicides were committed, we'd see that this behavior is concentrated in certain small neighborhoods. Then Irvine might not appear to be an anomaly in comparison to similar neighborhoods in LA County.

                        When discussing gun control, we also must keep in mind that guns are way down the list of weapons used in actual homicides. In real life, hammers are used several times more frequently than firearms to kill people.

                        And, in real life, when a city bans guns for its private citizens, violent crimes soar. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been an exception to that.
                        All valid points.

                        The point the article makes is that more gun control relates to less gun crime.
                        Trust me?
                        I'm an economist!

                        Comment


                        • gunnut,

                          Don't need an excuse. It's a right under the Constitution.
                          I understand that. what I question is the view that the 2A is the ultimate "indicator of the correct relationship between the citizen and the state and a reminder of the unbreakable sovereignty of the individual".

                          it's -one- of the indicators, but not the only or even the most important one.

                          GVChamp,

                          Not sure you're taking the right view here. The English Revolution and the American Revolution both would've never gotten off the ground without civilian ownership of weapons.
                          true. on the other hand, how many times have we (the US) experienced something like this in our history, -other- than the American Revolution? I can think of one example...and that's the Civil War, where the South utilized these personal arms in a revolt against constitutional authority, not to defend it.

                          remember, I'm NOT arguing regarding the constitutionality or the "correctness" of the 2A.

                          I'm arguing against the viewpoint that it's the best/ultimate argument against tyranny, the whole "democracy is wolf and lamb having a vote and the 2A means a well-armed lamb."
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • The Southerners obviously believed otherwise.

                            Has any government tried putting a whole class of its citizens or even a race in concentration camps?Yeah,there were the Japs 70 years ago,but we're not talking the real ugly version and we're not talking millions.
                            The 2A was not needed in the history of the US.Therefore you don't have a basis to disagree with the whole ''wolf and lamb having a vote and the 2A means a well-armed lamb''.

                            On the other hand,the founding fathers of the US believed the 2A as not being useful until someone tries to supress it.And to my knowledge there were no serious efforts to circumvent it until the 80's or 90's,which is basically our lifetime.
                            Those who know don't speak
                            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                            Comment


                            • Mihais,

                              Well there was that one time when Native Americans were literally forced out of their homes to make room for new settlements and assigned to live in arbitrarily established campsites. And the ones that tried to fight back were brutally put down by the US Army and advancing settlers, resulting in the deaths of thousands and the permanent usurpation of their ancestral lands.

                              The actions of the government and its citizens clearly indicated that the second amendment didn't apply to them.
                              "Draft beer, not people."

                              Comment


                              • What time period are we talking about?

                                It's a sad period in American history but Native Americans weren't considered "real Americans" until they were granted citizenship by congresss in 1924.

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