The 2016 US General Election

[astralis]

JAD,

Asty:

Trump ought not get credit for creating the shift out of whole cloth. The forces behind it have been a long time in building. But perhaps he does deserve credit for triggering it.

The issues you mentioned, immigration and free trade, actually, for most of his supporters, lie at the heart of their belief that the economy is deteriorating and along with it their job security and potential for economic advancement. As you can see from exit polls, 60% of voters rated the economy as their main concern, while immigration and other hot button issues were in the low teens.

yes, he identified this as a swing-state (vice national) concern quite well. but his policies do not seem to presage a shift, long-term or not, to me. IE this is not like a Reagan Revolution, completely changing both Republican concerns -and- policy solutions.

IE, Mitch McConnell is still talking about defunding Obamacare as a priority going in. nor are congressional Republicans, as far as i can tell, eager to start a new immigration debate (although Trump can eliminate Obama's executive orders). he will certainly have the Presidential bully pulpit (and god, does that have multiple meanings now) but I doubt congressional Republicans will give much more than lip service to it. i expect where Trump DOES have power on his side-- trade agreements-- if there's anything close to a trade war, then things will start getting hairy for him.

four years is both long, and not-so-long, so we'll see.

[JAD_333]

JAD,



but what i mean is that Trump's proposals are not on traditional left-right lines, at least not the lines drawn up since the Reagan Revolution. "tariffs, restrictions, curtailing free trade", for instance, used to be left-wing principles...from the 1970s. similarly, Trump is also calling for large amounts of infrastructure spending -and- tax cuts. as i mentioned repeatedly, he is quite similar to a Southern Democrat from the 1950s-- yes, with the white nationalism that such a description implies.

moreover, i do not think this type of shift is likely going to be long-lasting nor beneficial in any way. do you think -Trump- will be the one that "corrects the close relationship between moneyed interests and government", for instance? to the extent that he has stirred up emotion, the bulk of it is anti-immigration, and not, say, lower capital-gains tax rates.

As one who lived through the 1960s and 1970s, I don't recall anything from those decades that resembles the revolution we saw take place yesterday. You say Trump's proposals are not on traditional left-right lines, and I agree with you, but you're starting from the wrong place to describe what happened yesterday. You need to start from the reality that yesterday a long-shot candidate won an election with an outpouring of traditional Republicans, independents and people who have never voted before. Or, to put it another way, these voters rejected all the candidates who represented (at least in their minds) the Washington merry-go-round that has ignored their concerns administration after administration, Democrat and Republican.

You may be right that the shift will be short lived. It depends on how much positive comes of it. The progressives had a long run thanks mainly to a seemingly endless run of social programs.

I can't say that Trump will be able or want to curb close ties between moneyed interests and politicians, etc., but he has nothing to lose by trying, which is part of his appeal to his followers. There will be immigration reform before the next Congress is out. The same goes for repatriation of corporate profits held overseas. The latter could be tied to infrastructure appropriations.

[YellowFever]

wooglin,

as Stitch did not insult you personally, please show him the same courtesy.

So yeah, Stitch is a guy I've known here for a few years and he's a likeable guy but when he said Trump voters didn't use logic when they voted for him (or words to that effect), I kinda took it personally being a Trump voter.

Or can I say Clinton voters are illogical and didn't know wtf they were doing?

[astralis]

YF,

lord knows we've used plenty of generalities around here, but i'm asking everyone not to attack their fellow WAB members.

[YellowFever]

Fair enough.

But I'm saying there was cause for Wooglin to write what he did.

But you're right.

[Stitch]

So yeah, Stitch is a guy I've known here for a few years and he's a likeable guy but when he said Trump voters didn't use logic when they voted for him (or words to that effect), I kinda took it personally being a Trump voter.

Or can I say Clinton voters are illogical and didn't know wtf they were doing?

I KNEW I was going to stir up some crap when I wrote that . . . wasn't my intention . . .

[Dazed]

As one who lived through the 1960s and 1970s, I don't recall anything from those decades that resembles the revolution we saw take place yesterday. You say Trump's proposals are not on traditional left-right lines, and I agree with you, but you're starting from the wrong place to describe what happened yesterday. You need to start from the reality that yesterday a long-shot candidate won an election with an outpouring of traditional Republicans, independents and people who have never voted before. Or, to put it another way, these voters rejected all the candidates who represented (at least in their minds) the Washington merry-go-round that has ignored their concerns administration after administration, Democrat and Republican.

You may be right that the shift will be short lived. It depends on how much positive comes of it. The progressives had a long run thanks mainly to a seemingly endless run of social programs.

I can't say that Trump will be able or want to curb close ties between moneyed interests and politicians, etc., but he has nothing to lose by trying, which is part of his appeal to his followers. There will be immigration reform before the next Congress is out. The same goes for repatriation of corporate profits held overseas. The latter could be tied to infrastructure appropriations.

JAD The thing is other than losing 2 Senate Seats and 5 or 6 House Seats, not too much reject the system in the Republican House and Senate. I would like Trump to be in the mold of Teddy Roosevelt or Nixon. The latter for SALT, EPA, COLA and recognizing 862 Million people.

A NPR reporter was quoted as saying one of Trump's son approached John Kasich Chief of Staff offering Kaisch the job of Chief of Staff for the Trump White House. Kaisch would be given control of US foreign and domestic policy. K's chief of staff asked Trump's son what Donald would be doing? The sons reply. "Making America Great Again." Actual events will tell what Trump does but my Notra Dumb Ass prediction is no.

[Double Edge]

And they didn't use their logic to vote for him, either.

No, they didn't when i watched the debates what came across was this guy got to you on an emotional level if not higher.

NPR had a pretty good article on the influence and interaction of social media on the election cycle; is this what our political landscape has come to?

Did Social Media Ruin Election 2016?

That is an interesting question but the rest of the world seems to be moving in the same direction, those that can access social media anyway. Those that understand it and exploit it have an advantage.

The only consolation I have is that, as InExile and S2 said, we still have our Constitutional system of checks and balances in place, which should keep some of Trump's excesses from destabilizing the country and/or our relations with the rest of the world; I also agree with InExile's last statement: " . . . and hope that he will prove a better man in power than when he was seeking it."

In any case, we are in for a very interesting next four years . . .

Right, its called a republic with rules and not mob rule. You guys don't mess with your constituition too much.

[Double Edge]

Careful in calling the voters stupid. Education never equaled intelligence.

Despite universal MSM backing
Despite over a billion in funding
Despite all the political distancing
Despite all the polling
Despite presidential backing
Despite all the lies Trump made
Despite the audio recordings
Despite Alicia

Trump got elected, and enough people showed up to make it happen.

Maybe they are trying to tell you something.
Maybe one had best listen?

That no doubt will be too hard for the left. Same old Racist Xenephobic shouts, burning of the flag, threats to leave the country etc.

Not respecting democracy is the most trite of all immaturity. They don't deserve respect. However they will be embraced & excused by the left again.

They won't learn a single thing.

Trump struck me as a complete underdog, the guy with small guns in a fight with experienced fighters. Did it matter if he was rich. The way the media slammed him actually made me want to hear what this guy had to say, was he really as bad as made out to be. Nobody knows what he will do but some are dead certain of it. I don't understand that. Is this how one wins arguments by spreading fear. Well, the people came out and gave their answer.

It's amazing he survived long enough to actually win. So now he has to survive being a president.

[GVChamp]

To the extent there is a revolution, it's that lesser-educated whites are now voting like a minority group. But a lot of people have been talking about that shift for a while now.
Trump cost Republicans college-educated voters and there's still some demographic change that lost NV and CO and basically makes VA a blue state now. Open question if the Republicans can actually keep that coalition together, but there's a LOT of room to go. And because of where lower-class whites are situated, they are electorally extremely important.

On the flip side, Dems did not turn out their whole base, which is just as big of a story. Trump actually didn't fare too much differently than Romney, but Hillary WAY under-performed.

Dems are on their back foot right now, but they are hardly down and out. They still hold almost half the Senate.


Also, while I know I should not gloat, and don't really feel the need to here, Facebook is a totally different story. I like DOR and astralis just fine but those people (my friends, obviously!) have been living in a smug Wonderland the last 8 years and it's so incredibly gratifying seeing that bubble burst.

[Double Edge]

When is Bluesman returning from his hiatus. Any sightings yet : D

[antimony]

I am going to repeat what Michael Moore has written, because I can't express my feelings better myself:

HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE.

The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period.

The majority of Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he’s president is because of the Electoral College.

We cannot change the rules to suit our desires, so we will accept Trump as President.

In this country a majority of its citizens have said they believe there’s climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don’t want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the “liberal” position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen.

So from now on, any Democratic member of Congress who didn’t wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that's about to begin.

Hey President Trump, you won. Congratulations.

This just got a little bit more interesting...

[bonehead]

This country has just been duped in a fashion that would make PT Barnum proud. An 18 month dog and pony show to give the illusion of choice, but last night the country chose between...... two New Yorkers. Different sides of the same coin that nobody really wanted.

[GVChamp]

Yup, and Al Gore "won" the popular vote, and Dubya took an actual majority in 2004.

Note: Hillary did not take a majority. If she had, she would be President-Elect. She had a slight hair above Trump, smaller than the lead Gore had over Dubya, and both Gore and Dubya beat HRC's vote share. Dubya had more of a mandate in 00 than HRC does in 16

[tankie]

When is Bluesman returning from his hiatus. Any sightings yet : D

I believe he is banned !