Congress to look into restarting F-22 production

[TopHatter]

I don't think it's quite fair to ask pilots whether they'd want to take the F35 or the F22 since the Raptro can do somethings in the kinematics area that the F35 simply can't do. Having it in the mix complicates the challenge facing adversaries considerably.

Agreed, that's a total BS question. Two different aircraft designed for different roles, even allowing for overlap.

[Officer of Engineers]

I don't know of one air force that can afford to keep that plane in the air for more an hour a month.

[zraver]

I don't think it's quite fair to ask pilots whether they'd want to take the F35 or the F22 since the Raptro can do somethings in the kinematics area that the F35 simply can't do. Having it in the mix complicates the challenge facing adversaries considerably.

Unfortunately, since production has ended, the costs of restarting production and flying more F22s have to be balanced against other urgent needs such as the B-21, especially now that we live in a world where adversaries are increasingly seeking to attack US forces at standoff range with advanced ballistic missiles.

If the US loosens export controls there would be a lot of allied money wanting raptors. Though this would impact the F-35 program but I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

[citanon]

I don't think it's quite fair to ask pilots whether they'd want to take the F35 or the F22 since the Raptro can do somethings in the kinematics area that the F35 simply can't do. Having it in the mix complicates the challenge facing adversaries considerably.

Unfortunately, since production has ended, the costs of restarting production and flying more F22s have to be balanced against other urgent needs such as the B-21, especially now that we live in a world where adversaries are increasingly seeking to attack US forces at standoff range with advanced ballistic missiles.

[Jimbo]

Here is a story with some numbers on cost per flight hours:

Real Clear Defense - F-22 restart is bad idea

To Summarize already the F-35 cost per flight hour is 2/3 and projected to eventually be 1/2 of the F-22 and that is comparing 2015 FY$ for F-35 to 2012 FY$ for F-22.

This particular line picked up my attention:

Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the F-35 program manager, suggested asking pilots who have flown the both the F-22 and the F-35 which they’d prefer to take into combat.

Anyone know any pilot who has flown both that has voiced an opinion on that?

[bfng3569]

Any cost and time to resurrect an F-22 line will be child's play compared to the time it will take and the cost incured to build a 6th gen fighter that is planned to replace the F-22.

USN is working on the autonomous tanker, USAF is working on its B-21. Both these programs (and whatever else is being hammered in the 'drones' world) will give pentagon the experience required to make a truly revolutionary 6th gen fighter to replace the F-22. Why don't they use these programs in the works to buy time to mature revolutionary technologies for the 6th gen replacement? In the meantime, ressurect the F-22 and revamp it with current mature techonologies. This will release pressure on mid 20s to mid 30s budgets as the new F-22s will stretch the current life of the fleet to beyond 70s, giving more time to mature 6th gen tech. A revamped F-22 possibly with 3D TV, modern processors, F-35 levels of data and sensor fussion, next gen power plant, side radars, would be more than a match for whatever adversaries can come up with before the advent of its replacement. Meanwhile, pushing the F-22 replacement further down means more time to mature technologies which will result in cheaper frames. Personally i really do hope (against hope) that congress succeeds in this new effort.

Hell, just go with new build f-15SE's..... or even the latest version minus the stealth junk.. keep the conformal tanks for fuel (increased range vs internal stealthy misdilecarrige) update the engines to something in the thrust class as the F-35's (of if they are ready the new super efficient ones that are in development) integrate the communications data links that is currently an external pod that allows them to link up with f-22's and -35's and incorporate the irst tracking system that is also currently a pod....

Not ideal, but effective. And available.

Reduce r&d for the sixth gen fighter but keep it going and put funding elsewhere as needed until the F35 is up and running on budget.

[citanon]

A tally of potential items needed for F22 restart and opportunities to upgrade the plane:

http://www.defenseone.com/technology...ref=d-topstory

[citanon]

According to more detailed reports only one member of the committee suggested restart and his comment was regarded with skepticism by all others present.

As cool as an F22 restart would be it seems there are way too many other priorities.

[Zinja]

... The problem is cost and time.

Any cost and time to resurrect an F-22 line will be child's play compared to the time it will take and the cost incured to build a 6th gen fighter that is planned to replace the F-22.

USN is working on the autonomous tanker, USAF is working on its B-21. Both these programs (and whatever else is being hammered in the 'drones' world) will give pentagon the experience required to make a truly revolutionary 6th gen fighter to replace the F-22. Why don't they use these programs in the works to buy time to mature revolutionary technologies for the 6th gen replacement? In the meantime, ressurect the F-22 and revamp it with current mature techonologies. This will release pressure on mid 20s to mid 30s budgets as the new F-22s will stretch the current life of the fleet to beyond 70s, giving more time to mature 6th gen tech. A revamped F-22 possibly with 3D TV, modern processors, F-35 levels of data and sensor fussion, next gen power plant, side radars, would be more than a match for whatever adversaries can come up with before the advent of its replacement. Meanwhile, pushing the F-22 replacement further down means more time to mature technologies which will result in cheaper frames. Personally i really do hope (against hope) that congress succeeds in this new effort.

[jlvfr]

Wasn't there recently (ie, 2-3 years) some articles comparing this with a possible USAF version of the new advanced F-15 Boeing was trying to sell/build? I'm sure I remember something... but maybe I've been drinking too much coffee...

[Albany Rifles]

I would hope if (and I think that is a mighty big IF) it proceeds beyond a mere looking at by congress, it would come out of the Air Force's budget and not further drain the Army's budget. The Army can barely upgrade its existing equipment with its current budget let alone procure new equipment. A lot of Army equipment is getting long in the tooth. That said I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Jimbo,

The services are fighting tooth and nail for every dime each can get. The Air Force doesn't give a rats ass, mostly, if they get their money at the cost of the Army. So long as the Army can provide Title 10 theater sustainment support and the Air Force can project power then the Air Force is happy.

My program, the ONLY successful DOD enterprise sustainment system (the Navy, Marine & Air Force all failed and are back at the starting block), just took a massive cut. This is happening across the Army.

[kato]

The i960 series isn't really a consumer product.

Especially the socalled multiprocessor of the F-22, which is basically an integrated hardened cluster of 35 i80960MX processors in concert with a specifically designed digital signal processor (from Raytheon, derived from the radar DSP of the F-15). The signal box handles about 4 billion instructions per second, which is considered plenty enough. In addition that cluster is highly modular and meant for later upgrading with an upgrade path already laid out and secured.

There's a somewhat more detailed view at the "obsolescence" here (15 years old but still valid):
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/art...-upgrades.html

[tbm3fan]

The Raptor relies on a 25 MHz Intel 80960 32-bit processor, a chip design now a quarter-century old. The 80960 is capable of 9.4 million instructions per second. A modern iPhone 6, by contrast, can execute 25 billion instructions per second."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...-line-is-dead/

...and that is the scary part. One can get those chips for relatively cheap since it is a consumer product. Now try putting it into a Raptor and all of a sudden it is a 5 million dollar chip. Kind of like my tweezers for modeling from a hobby shop. Now a very similar tweezers, called a cilia remover (eye lashes), and all of a sudden it costs 10x more. Hobby vs. medical.

[Stitch]

I would hope if (and I think that is a mighty big IF) it proceeds beyond a mere looking at by congress, it would come out of the Air Force's budget and not further drain the Army's budget. The Army can barely upgrade its existing equipment with its current budget let alone procure new equipment. A lot of Army equipment is getting long in the tooth. That said I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Yes, it was a stupid decision. And there are those who say that if we had taken all of the money that we've (so far) wasted on the F-35 and, instead, spent that money on the F-22, that we'd have a 500-plane Raptor fleet, instead of 187 (well, 185, actually; we've lost a couple of airframes since 2005). However, an article I read last year said something about the F-22 tooling "missing", or at least not where it's supposed to be.

Why, if what the current F-22's have is good enough for them to be fielded for the next 20-50 years, why would the new batch have to be upgraded relative to existing F-22 air frames? The only reason I see for doing upgrades that are not already being applied to current F-22's is for cost savings.

Good example: "If the F-22 were ever reintroduced, then there would be a strong push to update the plane's technology, further delaying production. The Raptor relies on a 25 MHz Intel 80960 32-bit processor, a chip design now a quarter-century old. The 80960 is capable of 9.4 million instructions per second. A modern iPhone 6, by contrast, can execute 25 billion instructions per second."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...-line-is-dead/

[zraver]

As a back up to a total failure of the F-35 to become a truly mission capable aircraft it might be doable, especially if the export controls were relaxed for critical allies. The tools still exist, some parts are still in production and most of the workers are still LM employees (F-35 project). The problem is cost and time.