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  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post

    CAS is capability issue, not a platform issue.
    The fire Support Community, and the USAF have been saying this since the 90s. Its Congress that we have to convince.

    And thats a hard job. No matter how many Power Point briefings you give about how everyone does CAS/Danger Close on the modern battlefield, not just the A-10, Someone will post a video of the A-10 doing a gun run. Then their eyes will glaze over. And they are convinced that they know what the military needs damn the facts.

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  • gf0012-aust
    replied
    Originally posted by Stitch View Post
    IIRC, Japan was on the short list of countries originally interested in purchasing the F-22, along with Australia and Israel; here's a good (but older) "white paper" on the subject: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22684.pdf
    I was in a room with 400 others where Ashton Carter said at the time, that if Aust wanted the F-22 he couldn't see Congress being too obstructive and that he personally had no issue with us wanting it.

    RAAF did an internal evaluation anyway due to local political hysteria about JSF and rejected it for a number of reasons.

    I can't see any compelling reason for getting a magnificent asset if it ends up buggering up our force balance and budget.

    They're hardly necessary when you look at our region and you look at the C4/C5/ISR/INT we have in place

    australia like everyone else runs combat capability scenarios across various military threats even the absurd... I cannot see any compelling reason where an F-22 would make any difference for us.

    Japan OTOH - but even then there are things that JSF brings to the table that they wish they had designed into the F-22. Its just not architecturally simple to achieve and you really have to question whether you want to ingest that huge engineering chore when the F-22 will struggle to do a lot of the 6th gen capability being looked at.

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  • gf0012-aust
    replied
    Originally posted by jlvfr View Post

    As for any new foreign aircraft... since they allready have the stealthy F-35, and are building the F-3 (also with stealth features) do they even need a third stealth aircraft?
    because 6th gen includes C5, ISR , acting as a node and a relay within the common combat operating picture and hypersonic weapons - last list I saw had almost a dozen extra discrete capabilities over and beyond VLO/LO
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 16 Jul 16,, 23:41.

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  • gf0012-aust
    replied
    Originally posted by citanon View Post
    Engine, stealth coatings, internal structure for improved manufacturability, improved signature management, more apertures for sensors, redesigning the cockpit for the f35s helmet, etc
    actually the biggest nightmare is a reharness with some of the JSF capability, and improved modularity. Its just a PITA and from my perspective having been involved in projects reharnessing and digitally upgrading would be just a nightmare due to the inherent design basics within F-22. and there are multiple blocks which are not even friendly with each ioteration

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  • gf0012-aust
    replied
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I think the timing is such that the 6th gen fighter program will be kicking off production about the time that the F-35 and KC-46 are over the hump and the B-21 is at IOC.
    see previous - 6th gen planning has already started


    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I'll believe it when I see it.
    CAS is capability issue, not a platform issue.

    eg the majority of danger close CAS to SOCOM and sister allied SOF have been done by B1's and B52's

    Forget the USAF 3 star we saw, but he made it pretty clear that the objective is to have any platform able to support, to do that support

    if you look at JSF and its ability to handoff, it means that it can do the ISR and vector in anything with an SDB, PGM or the like - and anything with Link22 can join in. That means ships, tanks and arty (where the arty is wired up for Link22)

    its a bit more detailed than that, but not sure I'm in a position to expand in here.

    if you look at afghanistan as an example, the majority of SF support has been by high flyers, rotary or within pre-mapped interlocking arty from different ISAF elements. The bulk of those support missions would not have been served any better if at all by A10's. CREF my prev re B1's and B52's doing danger close support with PGM's
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 16 Jul 16,, 23:55. Reason: typos

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  • gf0012-aust
    replied
    Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
    can we really afford a 6th gen aircraft at the moment though? and can you afford DEW? Hell, they still haven't gotten them onto surface ships yet, were they have a lot more space to work with and a lot less size restraints.
    6th gen planning started some time ago - and they've worked out that it won't be a single frame solution. USAF and USN/USMC will have specs for their solutions but not the same platform.

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  • bfng3569
    replied
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    I think the timing is such that the 6th gen fighter program will be kicking off production about the time that the F-35 and KC-46 are over the hump and the B-21 is at IOC.

    This is what happens when you've been enjoying a peace dividend for a couple of decades due to lack of competition instead of recapitalizing.



    I'll believe it when I see it.
    6th gen kicking of production after the f35 etc are over the hump is great.... how about the billions of development costs leading up to that?

    And I'll believe a lot of things when I see them.... but aren't there news reports out there that they are getting ready to start some studies/proposals for an A210 replacement? Or is that just bluster being reported as news?

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  • SteveDaPirate
    replied
    Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
    New tanker, B-21, F-35, A-10 replacement etc etc etc... seems like there is a lot on the plate at the moment (or coming out of the wallet)
    I think the timing is such that the 6th gen fighter program will be kicking off production about the time that the F-35 and KC-46 are over the hump and the B-21 is at IOC.

    This is what happens when you've been enjoying a peace dividend for a couple of decades due to lack of competition instead of recapitalizing.

    Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
    A-10 replacement
    I'll believe it when I see it.

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  • bfng3569
    replied
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    We aren't scheduled to begin buying 6th gens until the 2025-2030 time range, and no doubt they will start with LRIP and gradually increase in numbers as we are able to ramp up production. We are still in the tech investment phase for 6th gens.

    Part of the reason we've been investing so heavily into DEWs over the last decade is to mature the technology and shrink it down to the point that we can make a mobile version with the potency to be really nasty. The (apparently very successful) operational deployment of a laser on the Ponce is evidence of progress in this regard.

    Lockheed and others have already pitched the idea of installing lasers powerful enough to blind IR missiles or IRST systems on fighters in the F-35 in place of the lift fan, and have developed adaptive optics to counteract atmospheric effects that would degrade the quality of the laser.

    Miniaturization seems to be progressing well, and the F-135 engine provides plenty of power for a solid state laser, but the biggest issue seems to be heat management. The F-35 is already on the edge of having heat issues due to the amount of electronic gizmos packed into it. I think a big part of the push for 3 stream adaptive cycle engines is to allow aircraft to shed excess heat more effectively. Of course improvements in fuel efficiency never hurt either.
    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/loc...mba-1635210849

    New tanker, B-21, F-35, A-10 replacement etc etc etc... seems like there is a lot on the plate at the moment (or coming out of the wallet)

    which, on a side note, if the Japanese are serious about that 40 billion.... piggyback that instead on an all new design..?

    but either way, it seems like funding is going to be a huge issue (and all that wonderfull tech is very very very unproven), so leveraging foreign cash to upgrade and add numbers to an 'existing' fleet.... while continuing to develop and mature technologies to reduce the cost risk... from an outsider looking in it doesn't seem like a bad idea.

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  • SteveDaPirate
    replied
    Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
    As for any new foreign aircraft... since they allready have the stealthy F-35, and are building the F-3 (also with stealth features) do they even need a third stealth aircraft?
    I fully expect LO if not VLO to be standard in all future Western fighters/bombers.

    The cost and compromises required to build stealth into aircraft has come down to very reasonable levels compared to the benefits it offers.

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  • jlvfr
    replied
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post

    Any new build F-22 will integrate new RAM materials as well as the ALIS system and the software to run it. They'll have some practice with building the ALIS system for the F-35, but I can't imagine it would be fast to build it into the F-22B.
    Forgot those, dumb me. Tbh, it looks more and more, from Japan's point of view, that the best idea would be to forge ahead with the F-3, since it looks like any reborn F-22 will be essentially a new aircraft. And, since Japan allready started the program...

    As for any new foreign aircraft... since they allready have the stealthy F-35, and are building the F-3 (also with stealth features) do they even need a third stealth aircraft?

    Leave a comment:


  • SteveDaPirate
    replied
    Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
    I don't think this would be done to the F-22, who would need "only" new electronics (maybe engine?).
    This is where I can't convince myself it would be the case.

    A big part of the reason the F-35 is so "fat" compared to the F-22 is all the extra electronics they packed into it. These electronics can't just be put any old place either, they are spread throughout the airframe and will require new apertures to function. 360 degree IR requires 360 degree sensors afterall.

    Any new build F-22 will integrate new RAM materials as well as the ALIS system and the software to run it. They'll have some practice with building the ALIS system for the F-35, but I can't imagine it would be fast to build it into the F-22B.

    Then you have questions about what else should go into the aircraft while you are busy redesigning big chunks of it anyway.

    How about the adaptive cycle engines that are right around the corner? They offer big improvements in range but will require the airframe to be adapted to engines with a larger diameter.

    Will the current F-22 weapons bay be able to handle the T3/CUDA derivitave that will replace the AIM-120D and the HARM? Can it carry them in sufficient numbers or does it need to be enlarged?

    Etc.

    At some point, you either try to pass off what is essentially a totally new aircraft as a modification of an existing type (Shornet) or just throw in the towel and start with a clean sheet design.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 15 Jul 16,, 15:05.

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  • SteveDaPirate
    replied
    Originally posted by bfng3569 View Post
    can we really afford a 6th gen aircraft at the moment though? and can you afford DEW? Hell, they still haven't gotten them onto surface ships yet, were they have a lot more space to work with and a lot less size restraints.
    We aren't scheduled to begin buying 6th gens until the 2025-2030 time range, and no doubt they will start with LRIP and gradually increase in numbers as we are able to ramp up production. We are still in the tech investment phase for 6th gens.

    Part of the reason we've been investing so heavily into DEWs over the last decade is to mature the technology and shrink it down to the point that we can make a mobile version with the potency to be really nasty. The (apparently very successful) operational deployment of a laser on the Ponce is evidence of progress in this regard.

    Lockheed and others have already pitched the idea of installing lasers powerful enough to blind IR missiles or IRST systems on fighters in the F-35 in place of the lift fan, and have developed adaptive optics to counteract atmospheric effects that would degrade the quality of the laser.

    Miniaturization seems to be progressing well, and the F-135 engine provides plenty of power for a solid state laser, but the biggest issue seems to be heat management. The F-35 is already on the edge of having heat issues due to the amount of electronic gizmos packed into it. I think a big part of the push for 3 stream adaptive cycle engines is to allow aircraft to shed excess heat more effectively. Of course improvements in fuel efficiency never hurt either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Originally posted by Dazed View Post
    What is the definition of blue money?
    Navy

    Leave a comment:


  • Dazed
    replied
    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    We use "Blue" money to buy fixed wing aircraft.
    What is the definition of blue money?

    Leave a comment:

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