F-16 FALCON vs. MIG-29 FULCRUM

[Tronic]

oh my... India-Pak discussion here, just what I was trying so hard to avoid... anyways, India only bought the Mig's cuz they know America can't be trusted (1998 sanctions). Soon the Mig's will be phased out with only a small number of Mig-29K's in service. The Sukhoi, and Indeginiously built planes will take the place of present Mig's.

[MIKEMUN]

[QUOTE=ajaybhutani]jgetti i think Mr Vastu didnt intend to use aryans as a racial slur. Teh indians fro north india are primarily aryans in origin mixed with others and we are now indistinguishable. So we indians use aryans term a lot not as a slur but to represent the fact that we belong to a set of people called aryans who came to india a few thousand years ago and settled here .Not that is no way related to teh holocaust and shouldnt be in any way related to the ww2. And i believe that even Mr_ vastu ( as his name sounds ) is an indian.[/QUOTE]


Ohh please,why are you defending him...Can't you see that he has been calling himself Mr. Adolf,Mr Aryan..The guy is a troll...

[indianbomb]

I dont see why anyone should get fired up on the term "aryan". It is just a nomenclature used to depict a certain kind of people. In fact quite some time back in India the word "Arya" was used to address some body else just like Mr or Sir. Even the Swastika, which is an Indian symbol for goodnesss, found in every Hindu temple , has some very dark meanings in Europe. It is very sad.

[jgetti]

I dont see why anyone should get fired up on the term "aryan". It is just a nomenclature used to depict a certain kind of people. In fact quite some time back in India the word "Arya" was used to address some body else just like Mr or Sir. Even the Swastika, which is an Indian symbol for goodnesss, found in every Hindu temple , has some very dark meanings in Europe. It is very sad.

That's just it, I took it the wrong way because in america it is generally used in derogatory ways only.

[Officer of Engineers]

I dont see why anyone should get fired up on the term "aryan". It is just a nomenclature used to depict a certain kind of people. In fact quite some time back in India the word "Arya" was used to address some body else just like Mr or Sir. Even the Swastika, which is an Indian symbol for goodnesss, found in every Hindu temple , has some very dark meanings in Europe. It is very sad.

The term is equated with the deaths of over 25 million people, in pursuit of the Aryan ideal. It is very sad ... and very understandable that we detest the term to no end.

When you have a freaking idiot like Vatsu who used the names Adolf, Hitler, and Aryan, then the term here is extremely unacceptable. While I understand the term Aryan as to describe a linquistic group, when you associate that with a bloody butcher, then that freaking idiot is associating that the Holocaust is a good thing.

[Bill]

"Really?? DO you really think that IAF will scramb only a handful of aircraft when it sees a number of bombers entering its airspace. And seriously, how many nuclear delivery capable aircraft does PAF has?? 10-20 or maybe 30. Do you really think that out of these figures, any aircraft would be able to manage to nuke a target like Delhi.

Yep.

"They would have to nuke Delhi or Bombay(Mumbai) to make an impact, dude. Any lesser target, won't be worth a nuclear conflict for PAF."

So what're you going to do when they nuke your biggest airbase?

[indianbomb]

I understand. I suppose that as you guys are in that part of the world which was touched by Nazi madness you have a right to react strongly. However it is ironic that the same symbols mean opposite things in two different part s of the world.

[ajaybhutani]

Well i didnt see him using Mr Adolf Mr Nazi etc here. If he did can anyone give me a link to it.
If he didnt then i think gettting mad on him using a word aryan dsnt make any sense . For aryan dsnt signify just nazis but many more people and beliefs. how can u force 800 million hindus most of whom are aryans ( or have aryan ancestors) to give away their culture ( their aryan inheritance ) that forms the basis of their religion and that too without their fault.

I m under a firm belief that ww2 had the nazis to blame and not aryans for aryans are not limited to parts of europe or made of nazi beliefs.

[ajaybhutani]

"Really?? DO you really think that IAF will scramb only a handful of aircraft when it sees a number of bombers entering its airspace. And seriously, how many nuclear delivery capable aircraft does PAF has?? 10-20 or maybe 30. Do you really think that out of these figures, any aircraft would be able to manage to nuke a target like Delhi.

Yep.

"They would have to nuke Delhi or Bombay(Mumbai) to make an impact, dude. Any lesser target, won't be worth a nuclear conflict for PAF."

So what're you going to do when they nuke your biggest airbase?

Wont it be cheaper to use a conventional bomb in the missile to destroy the airbase rahter than going for a nuke. as that will serve the purpse cheap in terms of immediate cost as well as the prevention of indian nuke reaction. And clearly indians will attack lahor eor islamabad in response.
But yes nuking a indian nuclear missile base makes a lot of sense.

[Officer of Engineers]

Well i didnt see him using Mr Adolf Mr Nazi etc here. If he did can anyone give me a link to it.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...6797#post66797

If he didnt then i think gettting mad on him using a word aryan dsnt make any sense . For aryan dsnt signify just nazis but many more people and beliefs. how can u force 800 million hindus most of whom are aryans ( or have aryan ancestors) to give away their culture ( their aryan inheritance ) that forms the basis of their religion and that too without their fault.

The bastardization ain't the fault of the real Aryans but that does not change the fact that the term was bastardized and in doing so, over 25 million people died.

I m under a firm belief that ww2 had the nazis to blame and not aryans for aryans are not limited to parts of europe or made of nazi beliefs.

Extremely true but doesn't matter. The term Aryans is forever tied to the Nazis whether you like it or not.

[Officer of Engineers]

Wont it be cheaper to use a conventional bomb in the missile to destroy the airbase rahter than going for a nuke. as that will serve the purpse cheap in terms of immediate cost as well as the prevention of indian nuke reaction. And clearly indians will attack lahor eor islamabad in response.

Air fields are actually alot of useless and empty space. You would take alot of conventional bombs with a CEP of 50 metres to take one out. It's cheaper with a single nuke.

[Ironduke]

Mr_Vastu (aka Mr Adolf, Mr Hitler, etc.) was banned for using a username deemed inappropriate under forum rules.

Reregistering under a new username to circumvent a ban is not allowed, Mr_Vastu is therefore banned, by default.

If anybody believes he has registered another username, send me a private message and I will investigate it.

[ajaybhutani]

well sorry guys i didnt know of vastu;s previous record.

[Bill]

"Air fields are actually alot of useless and empty space. You would take alot of conventional bombs with a CEP of 50 metres to take one out. It's cheaper with a single nuke."

My thinking exactly.

Airbases are freaking huge.

[Dima]

hi guys, good day, i'm a brand new member on this forum, and i have a record of getting kicked off, so far, my record is 14 forums in one day, that was fun, i was just kicked off of abovetopsecret.com for uknown reasons, racist bums, they hate me so much, that they banned my IP address from going to their main site, anyways, i'm here to talk MiG 29M vs. F-16 Block 60

we'll start with the MiG-29M fighter, the MiG-29M fighter are basically new aircraft, longer range, state-of-the-art equipment, fourfold redundant, three-channel, fly-by-wire system, which is equivalent to the fourfold redundant system used on the F-22, as well as higher weapon load

lets get into some better detail

the cockpits utilizes the HOTAS concept and is equipped with liquid crystal multifunction displays. The integrated weapon control system incoporates a radar FCS built around the ZHUK-ME radar and an IRST(infrared search and track) target designation system

the aircraft can me armed with: RVV-AE, R-27ER1, R-27ET1, R-27R1, R-27T1, and R-73E air-to-air missiles, but can also carry: Kh-29T, Kh-29L, Kh-31A, Kh-31P, Kh-35E, KAB-500KR, KAB-500L as well as rockets, freefall bombs, and a built in 30 mm GSh-301 gun

the airbirne radar provides detection of targets at a maximum of 245 kilomteres away, track-and-scan of 10 targets, and simultaneously fire on 4

the aircraft also boasts the following :

1.high efficiency under adverse operating conditions
2.superb performance data
3.excellent maintainability, reliability, and flight safety characteristics
4.up-to-date logistic support and low direct operating costs
5.an inglifght refueling system
6.digital three-channel fourfold redundant FBW system
7.Contemporary avionics system, cockpit information-control system, HOTAS concept (commonality with MiG-29K and MiG-29SMT aircraft)
8.an integrated weapon control system incoporating the upgraded FCS around the ZHUK-ME airborne radar which features a long detection range, multi channel firing, air-to-surface capability, an IRST, and helmet mounted target designation system
9.and contemporary navigation, radio communication, electronic countermeasures, electronic and recording systems, and optronic reconnaissance pods

also, the MiG-29M has the following technical characteristics:

normal takeoff weight 15.24 tons
maximum speed of 2,400 kilometers per hour, or roughly Mach 1.96
it has a service ceiling of 17,500 meters
an operational range of 2,000 kilometers with internal fuel
and is capable of carrying 4,500kilograms of weapons

http://www.migavia.ru/eng/production/?tid=1&id=5
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig29/

now dealing with the missiles:

the R-27, here are the general statistics for it:
it has a general range of 70 to 130 kilometers
travels at Mach 4
and has a 39kg expanding warhead

the R-73 has the basic statistics of:
range between 20 to 40 kilometers
Mach 2.5 performance
and a7.4 kg HE expanding rod warhead
also it s seeker has an azimuth of -/+ 45 degrees

the RVV-AE has the following statistics:
range between 50 to 150 kilometers
Mach 4.5 performance
and a 30kg HE fragmentation warhead
also, the Adder's seeker has an azimuth of -/+60 degrees

http://danshistory.com/arms.shtml

yea, well i think thats it, now, onto the F-16 Block 60 Fighting Falcon

this latest Fighting Falcons in production represent the largest confirguration change in F-16 history amd offer additional fuel and payload capacity, new and improved avionics and sensors, colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces, the targetting and weapons systems are highly advanced, with the F-16E/F(Block 60) equipped with the Active Electronic Scanning Array(AESA) which provides better performance, with higher processing speeds and memory capacities, and high resolution synthetic aperture which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from far distances.

for Troung, the Litening is a target system used for target identification, acquisition, and designation for smart GPs guided or laser guided munitions, its not a missile

they have really gone through the roof in navigation systems as the F-16 can use a navigation pod such as the Lantirn/Pathfinder, and digital terrain models. Another few features that come standard are the:

Tactical Air Navigation(TACAN)
VHF Omnidirectional receiver(VOR)
Distance Measuring Equipment(DME)
Instrument Landing System
Inertial Navigation System(INS)
Global Positioning System(GPS)
Digital Terrain System(DTS)

the Block 60 series utilizes a helmet mounted cueing system which allows the pilot to direct his sensors and weapons to his line of sight. A common configuration includes multichannel VHF/UHF/HF/Data communications, satellite communications and tactical data-link systems such as the Link 16 which provides a secure, jam-resistant, high-volume data exchange on a multi-node network. Another standard is the friend/foe interrogator/transponder which allows a pilot to be sure that they're not firing at a friendly aircraft, which lets him take a BVR shot from an even longer range

http://www.defense-update.com/featur...anced-f-16.htm

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/fi...=0&ti=0&sc=400

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/fi...=0&ti=0&sc=400


the F-16 has the following statistics:

it weighs 10.78 tons with nothing on it
it has a maximum speed of approximately 2,253 kilomteres per hour or roughly Mach 1.84
it has a service ceiling of 15,000+m
and has a range of 1,000 kilometers with internal fuel
it is capable of carrying 7.8 tons of weapons

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f16/
http://globalsecurity.org/military/s...16xl-specs.htm

now, we'll move onto the missiles, well, we'll discuss three missiles that the F-16 uses, two BVR and one WVR, just like the MiG comparison:

AIM-7 Sparrow
100 kilometer range
performance of Mach 3.7
39.9 kg proximity and impact delayed fused Mk71 continuous rod blast-fragmentation

AIM-9X
has the general statistics of the most advanced version of AIM-9 which is the "M" version
a range of 29.03 kilometers
a maximum speed of Mach 2.5
and a 10.2kg laser-fused WDU-17 annular blast/fragmentation

finally, the AIM-120C
range of 50-120 kilometers
speed of Mach 4
23kg WDU-33/B blast-fragmentation

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
http://danshistory.com/arms.shtml

okay, this is the end, i don't really have an overly biased opinion on either aircraft, their both amazing for different reasons, but in the end, if you look at each of the pieces of information that i provided:

the MiG 29 is heavier than the F-16 by 4.46 tons, quite significant
the MiG 29 can go faster than the F-16 by 0.12 Mach or 147 kilometers per hour
the MiG 29 has a much higher service ceiling by approximately 2,500 meters or 8,200 feet, which is quite significant
the MiG 29's range of 2,000 kilometers is longer than the F-16's range of 1,000 kilometers, BUT, since both the MiG 29M and Block 60 have inflight refueling, its basically unlimited, so it doesn't really matter
finally the MiG 29M can carry fewer weapons than the F-16 by a quite considerable amount, 3.3 tons less, or about only 58% of the F-16's weapon carriage

no, if we take into account missiles, since the MiG-29M's avionics aren't entirely inferior to the F-16' it would matter who has a longer ranged missile, well, the MiG-29M can fire the RVV-AE BVR missile which has a range of 150km max, but there is a version coming out soon that will have a range of 180+, now the F-16 longest BVR missile has a range of the AIM-7 Sparrow or the AIM-120C, which i heard has a max range of 120km, in the end, i'm not entirely sure about who would get the first simulated shot because the Falcon's RCS is lower than the Fulcrum's, but i think that the MiG-29M would get the first simulated BVR shot, and an advantage in battle, but we can't count out the F-16's small size, which gives it an advantage over the MiG-29, because of its smaller size, its radar signature is much smaller, so, the range of the RVV-AE, would decrease, i'm not sure if it would totally change the tides of the battle, but, it would give the MiG-29M only a slight advantage over the F-16, i'm not entirely sure though, it could go both ways

anyways, so it fires it off, in most cases, because of its superior performance to any other BVR missile(RVV-AE), because it has a seeker that has a +/- 60 azimuth, making it almost impossible for it to lose its lock on the target, but, if you got really lucky, or it was a faulty missile, WVR comes, now, the advantage is slightly in the MiG-29M's favour because it has a helmet mounted sighting system, but so does the 60, but, at subsonic maneuverability, the MiG-29 has an advantage over the F-16, so, the highest chances are that the MiG-29 will get off its AA-11 first ,now, since its seeker has an azimuth of +/- 45 degrees and a plan to increase that to +/-60 degrees, its almost unstoppable

in the end though, i believe that the MiG-29M would come out on top, i know i will face some sharp criticism here because over half of the people here are Americans and will support their aircraft to the very end like Troung here

can i ask you something Troung, do you have a comprehension problem by any chance, because you keep mentioning that more F-16 users have the AIM-120C than MiG-29M users have RVV-AE, we're talking about a hypothetical situation in which both pilots have equal experience and training and are armed with the traditional armament, i frankly don't care how many users have the AIM-120C, Tronic is obviously talking about a hypothetical situation, can't you understand that, hey you live in Toronto, me too, well not exactly, i live beside it in Brampton

by the way, many people have heard how the MiG-29 was unreliable, the first batches of MiG-29 Fulcrums delivered had a faulty mistake with the engine, and thus, many crashes were reported, and India had to send back a lot of them, Russia found the problem, fixed it, and gave most of them back to the Indians, but i'm not sure whether they gave ALL of them

now reliability terms, the MiG-29 is much more reliable and rugged than the F-16, FACT have you ever seen an F-16 go off a dirt runway, well probably yes, but caused some structural damage, MiG-29's do it all the time

my second last point, you can point out that the total number of F-16's sold is much higher than the amount of MiG-29's sold, well, you can also point out to who they were delivered to, 1st world industrialized nations such as Western Europe and Oil Rich Middle East nations, and Japan, other than those places, there aren't many other locations that have bought the F-16, Chile, yes, Poland, thats central europe, but the fact is, that all these nations have A LOT OF MONEY and, their ties with America make a good percentage of their economy, of course they're going to choose this aircraft over the MiG-29, now, nations that are industrializing or developing such as India, China, Malaysia etc. since they don't have as much money, they like to conserve, and need a plane that is rugged, and able to operate in any conditions, because chances are that they don't spend as much as these indutrialized and developed nations on maintaining their runways and aircraft and such, which is why they buy the MiG

long story short, an aircraft's success cannot be determined by the amount of aircraft sold, it depends on what the buyer is wanting

anyways, last point, Yugoslav aircraft in the Yugoslavian air war were outnumbered 4+:1, and thats just including the NATO, if you include tha mount of Aircraft America sent(NATO sent 150+ aircraft)

but, ome important things, MiG's dowing US and NATO aircraft, i'll give you the links later because the site doesn't work right now
damage downed culprit date
destroyed F-16C MiG-29 March 26
destroyed F-15E MiG-29 March 26

the kills above are confirmed kills, the kills that i am about to state are unconfirmed kills by news agencies, but confirmed kills by residents that watched the shjow at the time, lol

destroyed NATO aircraft MiG-29 March 24
destroyed NATO aircraft MiG-29 May 21
destroyed NATO aircraft MiG-29 May 31

these are unconfirmed reports by both NATO and the USAF as well as News Agencies, but many people saw this happen, saw these aircraft getting downed more specifically

destroyed F-117 MiG-29 March 24
(this is what some guy here on this forum, forgot his name now, was talking about, the unconfirmed killing of a F-117 by a MiG-29)

and thats it, well, hope i haven't displeased anyone, Troung, take it easy buddy, be more open, your so blinded by this F-16 is the greatest junk that you won't open yourself to actual facts, take Tronic's point of view, and give us your thoughts :)

i hope no one has received this in a wrong form, the F-16 Block 60 is a very good plane :) , but i do have to go with the MiG-29M on this one, if it were between the SMT and Block 60, i'm not sure about that one, it would be very close, any other version of the MiG-29, the Block 60 would beat undoubtedly, except maybe the MiG-29K

can you guys give me that Mr. Vastu's email? anyone?

and how do you make a signature here, i can't find out how to change my profile, maybe i'm just stupid today, lol, have a great day, always remember, someone's watching you at night, so don't even think about it!!!!