What if? Roman Army vs. USMC MEU

[mustavaris]

Simply look at what Pizarro and Cortez did. The technological gap was much, much smaller. Marine force would appear to be of divine origin to Romans. Unless they chose to not allign themselves with anyone and opted for trying to conquer Rome all alone, the marines would have any chances to lose the war.

It would appear impossible. The numerical superiority of the Roman forces is a factor one can never overlook. An average MEU cannot be expected to create the technology required to generate electricity or even spare parts within the set time constraint. Eventually, the marines would be forced to rely on the same technology used by the Roman forces.....which inevitably..would lead to their defeat.

Numerical superiority - Romans
Knowledge of terrain - Romans
Logistics - Romans
Technical know how- Romans.

[Chogy]

When you have a modern IR missile available, you are "handing off" necessary BFM to that device. The AIM-9 can do 20 to 30 G with ease, and of course accelerates faster than any jet. Thus, a Zero with a sidewinder would be a threat. Assuming we leave radar missiles out of the mix, I would not want to go 1 V 1 with an AIM-9 equipped Zero. His turn RATE is extremely high. He would have the ability to nose you, acquire a lock, and fire, very quickly indeed.

It would be like a flying SAM site. You have to respect the envelope that surrounds that missile. Essentially, you are honoring a modern weapon, so the platform it is mounted on simply has to be able to carry and fire it. Hang 6 or 8 AIM-9's on a P-51D in 1944, he'd make ace every sortie, assuming targets were available. They are that reliable and easy to use.

Numerical superiority - Romans
Knowledge of terrain - Romans
Logistics - Romans
Technical know how- Romans.

Bolded part - REALLY?! How do you figure?

[mustavaris]

I guess that that is one of the reasons why India chose to modernize some of her MiG-21 fleet.

[Parihaka]

When you have a modern IR missile available, you are "handing off" necessary BFM to that device. The AIM-9 can do 20 to 30 G with ease, and of course accelerates faster than any jet. Thus, a Zero with a sidewinder would be a threat. Assuming we leave radar missiles out of the mix, I would not want to go 1 V 1 with an AIM-9 equipped Zero. His turn RATE is extremely high. He would have the ability to nose you, acquire a lock, and fire, very quickly indeed.

It would be like a flying SAM site. You have to respect the envelope that surrounds that missile. Essentially, you are honoring a modern weapon, so the platform it is mounted on simply has to be able to carry and fire it. Hang 6 or 8 AIM-9's on a P-51D in 1944, he'd make ace every sortie, assuming targets were available. They are that reliable and easy to use.

Cool, thanks Chogy.

[ArmchairGeneral]

When you have a modern IR missile available, you are "handing off" necessary BFM to that device. The AIM-9 can do 20 to 30 G with ease, and of course accelerates faster than any jet. Thus, a Zero with a sidewinder would be a threat. Assuming we leave radar missiles out of the mix, I would not want to go 1 V 1 with an AIM-9 equipped Zero. His turn RATE is extremely high. He would have the ability to nose you, acquire a lock, and fire, very quickly indeed.

It would be like a flying SAM site. You have to respect the envelope that surrounds that missile. Essentially, you are honoring a modern weapon, so the platform it is mounted on simply has to be able to carry and fire it. Hang 6 or 8 AIM-9's on a P-51D in 1944, he'd make ace every sortie, assuming targets were available. They are that reliable and easy to use.

That's...intriguing.

Bolded part - REALLY?! How do you figure?

Perhaps you missed the context: "Eventually, the marines would be forced to rely on the same technology used by the Roman forces.....which inevitably..would lead to their defeat." I suspect the Romans have the advantage when it comes to experience in bowyery, blacksmithing, siege engines, and what not.

[S2]

"When you have a modern IR missile available, you are "handing off" necessary BFM to that device. The AIM-9 can do 20 to 30 G with ease, and of course accelerates faster than any jet. Thus, a Zero with a sidewinder would be a threat. Assuming we leave radar missiles out of the mix, I would not want to go 1 V 1 with an AIM-9 equipped Zero. His turn RATE is extremely high. He would have the ability to nose you, acquire a lock, and fire, very quickly indeed.

It would be like a flying SAM site. You have to respect the envelope that surrounds that missile. Essentially, you are honoring a modern weapon, so the platform it is mounted on simply has to be able to carry and fire it. Hang 6 or 8 AIM-9's on a P-51D in 1944, he'd make ace every sortie, assuming targets were available. They are that reliable and easy to use..."

I'd guess that would make a heat-seeking missile-armed attack helicopter a dangerous foe as well, particularly with its ability to use masking terrain and obstacles. If you didn't have a radar-shot from stand-off and had to close then the odds begin shifting in his favor assuming he has any sort of situational awareness.

[YellowFever]

Perhaps you missed the context: "Eventually, the marines would be forced to rely on the same technology used by the Roman forces.....which inevitably..would lead to their defeat." I suspect the Romans have the advantage when it comes to experience in bowyery, blacksmithing, siege engines, and what not.

I read Matthew's original statement in that context way as well.

However, I think the MEU's overwhelming superiority in firepower in the initial stage of any fight with the Romans will render those points moot.

Frankly, I don't think it'll get to the stage where the Marines will have to employ the same technology as the Romans.

The fight will probably be long over before it ever comes to that.

[Doktor]

How long will the MEU have electricity?

[S2]

Matthew J Reply

"Numerical superiority - Romans"

Bet a MEU carries more bullets than all of the soldiers in the Roman Empire.

"Single aimed shots only, gents. Let our opponents approach to 300 meters. Ready on the left? Ready on the right? The firing line is now open. Shooters, watch your lanes."

"Knowledge of terrain - Romans"

Marines quite likely can generate maps of any given location on earth from stored DVDs. With those maps a Marine officer or NCO could tell a Roman things about their terrain of which they'd otherwise have no clue.

"Logistics - Romans"

Only if Marines prove incapable after many weeks/months of fuel, battery and ammo conservation of adapting, improvising and overcoming. Rome's best chance is to surrender, learn and assimilate.

The marines would prove the personification of GODS. All Gods are flawed. So too marines.

"Technical know how- Romans."

Horseshit. See above. With the proper psy-ops application of shock & awe and sound conservation policies emplaced, the empire is their's to dominate.

[YellowFever]

How long will the MEU have electricity?

chogy's post number 24

Electricity is a snap. Every vehicle has an alternator or generator. Hook these up to the legs of any handy slave, crank out current. Your batteries are then recharged.

Eventually, the batteries themselves will die. At that point, you'd need some talented troops who understand lead-acid technology to make some more. The acid would be the tricky part. Lead, of course, was everywhere in Rome.

In Rome, you'd have copper (make wire), lead, bronze, iron. Add good magnets, you have generators. Rome had the technology to allow the MEU to kick-start a modest industrial revolution, but the key would be peace. That is why I believe the Marines must entrench and then ally. It'll take a few years to get the basics going, and this also requires some peace and stability. A Guerilla war would prevent this.

If the Marines get greedy and stupid, they will lose.

[YellowFever]

When you have a modern IR missile available, you are "handing off" necessary BFM to that device. The AIM-9 can do 20 to 30 G with ease, and of course accelerates faster than any jet. Thus, a Zero with a sidewinder would be a threat. Assuming we leave radar missiles out of the mix, I would not want to go 1 V 1 with an AIM-9 equipped Zero. His turn RATE is extremely high. He would have the ability to nose you, acquire a lock, and fire, very quickly indeed.

It would be like a flying SAM site. You have to respect the envelope that surrounds that missile. Essentially, you are honoring a modern weapon, so the platform it is mounted on simply has to be able to carry and fire it. Hang 6 or 8 AIM-9's on a P-51D in 1944, he'd make ace every sortie, assuming targets were available. They are that reliable and easy to use.

Just a technical question, chogy.

What would the difference be in effective range if a sidewinder was launched from a Zero traveling at 300 mph as opposed to a Tomcat launching the same missile from high subsonic speed?

[ArmchairGeneral]

I read Matthew's original statement in that context way as well.

However, I think the MEU's overwhelming superiority in firepower in the initial stage of any fight with the Romans will render those points moot.

Frankly, I don't think it'll get to the stage where the Marines will have to employ the same technology as the Romans.

The fight will probably be long over before it ever comes to that.

How soon before the Romans figure out tactics to negate Marine advantages and utilize their own superiority in numbers? How many tricks do the Marines have up their sleeve, and will they be smart and ration them out? I.e., don't reveal all your advantages at once, if you can avoid it -surprise them the first time with ranged fire, the second time with night vision, the third time with vehicles, the fourth time with artillery...

I suspect the Romans' best shot would be in Rome itself. Pack the city with soldiers. Numbers will tell there, with maneuverability and range much less important factors -quite likely many vehicles won't even be able to fit in the streets.

[YellowFever]

How soon before the Romans figure out tactics to negate Marine advantages and utilize their own superiority in numbers? How many tricks do the Marines have up their sleeve, and will they be smart and ration them out? I.e., don't reveal all your advantages at once, if you can avoid it -surprise them the first time with ranged fire, the second time with night vision, the third time with vehicles, the fourth time with artillery...

if I was the commander of the MEU, that's the way I would do it. Show your cards one by one and as little as possible.

I suspect the Romans' best shot would be in Rome itself. Pack the city with soldiers. Numbers will tell there, with maneuverability and range much less important factors -quite likely many vehicles won't even be able to fit in the streets.

Mogadishu.....but much, much easier.

At least those vermins had AKs and RPGs.

How likely can the Romans pierce even an armored Humvee with the technology they have?

Not to mention the other tracks they have at their disposal.

[bigross86]

I suspect the Romans' best shot would be in Rome itself. Pack the city with soldiers. Numbers will tell there, with maneuverability and range much less important factors -quite likely many vehicles won't even be able to fit in the streets.

A few demonstrations with artillery and aircraft should clear out the city relatively quickly, with very little collateral damage

[ArmchairGeneral]

Mogadishu.....but much, much easier.

At least those vermins has AKs and RPGs.

Thousands vs tens of thousands, and utterly different objective. We're not talking about trying to capture a Roman general, we're talking about taking the city.

How likely can the Romans pierce an armored Humvee with the technology they have?

How long before they figure out how to make a Molotov cocktail? Can soldiers shoot from a Humvee without exposing themselves?