Palestinians Want To Declare Statehood, But They Don't Even Have Unified Leadership

[snapper]

So basicly you think it would be advantageous to Israel if they declared 'Statehood' if I understand you correctly? Why then insist on a Unified Leadership? By your logic they would show themselves up anyway even worse? If they have a State and then rocket attacks continue you have the moral high ground to put down the faction that contravenes any agreement while supporting the faction that does agree.

[bigross86]

Clearly Gentlemen both of you are wrong. Neither side is whiter than white and both sides have done terrible things to the other. The problem remains that this is an Israeli and an Englishman discussing - where are Palestinians? Oh they don't have a state? bigross86 would it be advantageous to Israel to give Palestine a state? Caveats you may add but pls answer the question yes or no.

We can't both be wrong. The question here is whether there needs to be a defined leader before a declaration of statehood. The answer is either yes or no. I say yes, Dubitante says no. We can't both be wrong.

This discussion, while similar, is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is about the Palestinians and their inability to elect a unified leader.

I have no idea where the Palestinians are. Apparently they choose not to come here. I could force a couple Palestinians to come here, but then I'd be lambasted in the world press.

I claim it would be very advantageous for Israel to let the Palestinians declare a state, but not give it to them. If they declare a state, we will have a legal, defined entity to deal with and if need, declare war upon, instead of the shadow PA. I also think it would be advantageous because then the entire world will see that they cannot stand on their own two feet. Abbas himself has asked for billions in aid, claiming the PA is not ready to embark on statehood without support. The entire world will see the terror mongering ways still prevalent and practiced by both the Hamas and Fatah (though Fatah is clearly the lesser of the two evils). Moreover, the entire world will finally see how full of shite the Palestinians are.

But it won't make a difference, because it will all be pinned on Israel in the world media, anyway

[snapper]

Clearly Gentlemen both of you are wrong. Neither side is whiter than white and both sides have done terrible things to the other. The problem remains that this is an Israeli and an Englishman discussing - where are Palestinians? Oh they don't have a state? bigross86 would it be advantageous to Israel to give Palestine a state? Caveats you may add but pls answer the question yes or no.

[bigross86]

Apologies, I thought you were asking about the US-Israeli plot to overthrow democracy in 2007. My bad.

Moreover, after reading that article, I see no Israeli involvement whatsoever. I see plenty US involvement, though. Don't go dragging us in shit we didn't do

[Dubitante]

By the way, your link is irrelevant. I'm asking if you have any proof at all that the US/Israel us behind Hamas and Fatah's unity deal from a couple months ago not working out? A article from 2008 is absolutely worthless regarding something that happened in 2011

Apologies, I thought you were asking about the US-Israeli plot to overthrow democracy in 2007. My bad.

[bigross86]

By the way, your link is irrelevant. I'm asking if you have any proof at all that the US/Israel us behind Hamas and Fatah's unity deal from a couple months ago not working out? A article from 2008 is absolutely worthless regarding something that happened in 2011

[bigross86]

No, but last time they held elections it developed into a civil war, and the two parties themselves have stated that they are not willing to work with the other side. What's to stop that from happening again? Believe it or not, while a civil war would be great for Israel and showing the world that neither of the parties can run a state, I am not so bloodthirsty that I desire the death of Palestinian civilians in Hamas-Fatah power plays

[Dubitante]

Do you have any proof at all that the US/Israel us behind Hamas and Fatah's deal not working out?

Apologies, I sometimes forget what is and isn't common knowledge. The "proof" is in some very fine investigative journalism, based on leaked US documents. It's available here.

Knowing who's going to lead the new state is not an extreme precondition.

Do they have to inform the Israeli leadership who will lead them? Does Israel get a veto? Or can it be left up to elections?

[bigross86]

I don't demand to talk to a unified Palestinian government (in this case. We're not talking about peace negotiations). What I do demand is that they should decide who's going to lead this new state of theirs, or it will turn into another civil war.

I'd recommend elections to decide who's going to lead, but Abbas hasn't held elections since he was voted into office and has finished his term long ago. Even a Hamas unity government would be better in this case, we'd at least know who we're dealing with

[snapper]

Having a unified decision on who's going to run this new state of their would be a start, or else it will quickly develop into another civil war, a rehash of the Hamas-Fatah clashes.

Or are you so entrenched in your "the Palestinians can do no wrong" complex that this simple bit of common sense and logic is lost on you?

I tend to agree with agree you on this BUT you must accept that there are two political parties within Palestinian politics. This is normal in a democracy no? Yes I grant that one 'party' is classed as a terrorist organisation - Sinn Fein were once banned here - and that the two Palestian parties do not always argue in the normal democratic manner. However to insist on a Unified Palestinian Government before you will talk to them is perhaps unrealistic. Ay the end to any war one part of a population will not agree (Germany after Versailles etc). If you are being realistic you must support the part of the Government that agrees to any peace against the other part that doesn't. This is just time honoured tactics and nothing new.

[bigross86]

You truly believe your own shite, don't you? Do you have any proof at all that the US/Israel us behind Hamas and Fatah's deal not working out? Aside from the fact that both sides, along with many others, have condemned the deal and said it harms any attempts at peace?

Knowing who's going to lead the new state is not an extreme precondition. The fact that you would call it that points to your willing ignorance

[Dubitante]

Or are you so entrenched in your "the Palestinians can do no wrong" complex that this simple bit of common sense and logic is lost on you?

It's not lost on me. But without US-Israeli plots to overthrow democracy in Palestine, I suspect they will be fine.

There are only so many extreme preconditions that can be placed on Palestinian rights before it just becomes silly.

[bigross86]

Having a unified decision on who's going to run this new state of their would be a start, or else it will quickly develop into another civil war, a rehash of the Hamas-Fatah clashes.

Or are you so entrenched in your "the Palestinians can do no wrong" complex that this simple bit of common sense and logic is lost on you?

[Dubitante]

Palestinians Want To Declare Statehood, But They Don't Even Have Unified Leadership

They are unified in their desire to have their right to self determination fulfilled. Is it not enough? Or do they have to agree on everything first?

[667medic]

I wonder how the Grossen Funf would vote and also Bric nations. Of course the Muslim countries would support statehood.

I think Singapore would abstain. As far as India is concerned, the country is ruled by pseudo secularist Congress which gladly stoops to vote bank politics WRT Muslims and the next elections is in 2012....