Osama Bin Laden is dead and his corpse is in US hands.

[Tarek Morgen]

And bye the way A.M., We still have yet to see you appear in the new members section introducing yourself to the rest of the WAB members.

Chop Chop, Lets have it!;)

Uh he did that years ago:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mem...ste-howdy.html

[Dago]

uh but you even tested it back when I introduced it:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mov...-spoilers.html

regarding posting graphic content:

There has not been (to the best of my knowledge) a fixed rule in the past, but last time the issue came up it was decided that such pictures are better "hidden" behind a link (or behind the spoiler function since we have it now). So everyone can decide for himself if he wants to see it. Also, despite the big red letters, it was not meant as an "punishment" but simply to grab everyone's attention.

Haha damn, that would of been a very boring day for me! And I can't even remember posting in that thread! Probably just messing around on the forums that day...;)
I guess, the only thing I use are "IMG" and "Quote" tags.. never found the need for spoilers, hence me forgetting... and now there is a reason!

[Dago]

Uh he did that years ago:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mem...ste-howdy.html

I don't think I have a introduction thread. :(
Your like the P.I of wab, while your at it, any recent "Swimsuit pictures" :D...thought we had a thread around here somewhere... (and yeah you can PM that stuff to me )

Alright back on topic!

[omon]

Why in the world would Pakistani military officers harbour OBL? There is simply no reason for them to do so. OBL is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Pakistanis and most notable soldiers. Why would PA officers harbour a man who has killed their brothers and sisters. .

ok, good point, but that means obl lived under their noses, for years , a man who has killed their brothers and sisters, and Pakistani military had no idea whatsoever?????

[Agnostic Muslim]

My smell test has credibility with my gut.

Of course I was being tongue in cheek, but my point was that this 'gut instinct' thing, without any credible evidence backing it, tends to lead to a lot of fanciful conspiracy theories, such as the one around 9/11. Skeptics can point to a lot of circumstantial evidence and the 'might of the CIA and US military' to argue that the official version of events cannot be true. So lets stick with facts and evidence.

Like bin Laden living a half-mile from your West Point?

Which means what exactly, aside from playing really badly in the media?
No line of sight, not a neighborhood that was subjected to a huge amount of security checks, AFAIK, so what does the location really tell us? Nothing. Put the same house in Peshawar and its the same, except for less bad press.

I have no credible evidence to prove Pakistani leadership was involved in hiding Osama bin Laden, just as you have no credible evidence to prove Pakistani leadership was not involved in hiding Osama bin Laden. We do know where he was living which was in a conspicuous location as far as the Pakistani military was concerned even if you don't believe they were involved. Fair enough?

But why was it conspicuous to the military? It wasn't really right next door as the media is making it out to be, and I am unaware of any reports indicating it was any sort of high security neighborhood that was subject to extensive periodic scrutiny. It might as well have been a neighborhood anywhere.

Unless that particular neighborhood was meant to be scrutinized fairly extensively, and wasn't can a case of incompetence be made. And only if that neighborhood was supposed to be scrutinized carefully, and was scrutinized, but this house was inexplicably ignored, can one argue complicity.

[Dago]

Unless that particular neighborhood was meant to be scrutinized fairly extensively, and wasn't can a case of incompetence be made. And only if that neighborhood was supposed to be scrutinized carefully, and was scrutinized, but this house was inexplicably ignored, can one argue complicity.

One can argue complicity, when the ISI originally supported the Taliban and therefore Bin Laden, in the past. That's sufficient enough for me. The rest, is icing on the cake.

[Agnostic Muslim]

ok, good point, but that means obl lived under their noses, for years , a man who has killed their brothers and sisters, and Pakistani military had no idea whatsoever?????

Well, it was a brilliant location choice by obl, no one expected him there. But given that OBL had completely dropped off everyone's radar until his courier made the mistake of using a cell phone, why blame Pakistan alone for not detecting him?

[calass]

More information from Pakistani sources..now they are claiming credit for the entire operation

Osama Bin Laden killed in Abbotabad near Islamabad of Pakistan

Pakistani Urdu TV channel Geo News quoted Pakistani intelligence officials as saying that the world's most wanted terrorist Osama Bin Laden was killed in a search operation launched by the Pakistani forces after a Pakistani army helicopter was shot down in the wee hours of Monday in Abbotabad, a mountainous town located some 60 kilometers north of Pakistan's capital city of Islamabad.

At about 1:20 a.m. local time a Pakistani helicopter was shot down by unknown people in the Sikandarabad area of Abbotabad. The Pakistani forces launched a search operation in the nearby area and encountered with a group of unknown armed people. A fire exchange followed between the two sides.

When the fire exchange ended, the Pakistani forces arrested some Arab women and kids as well some other armed people who later confessed to the Pakistani forces they were with Osama Bin laden when the fire was exchanged and Bin Laden was killed in the firing.

Local media reported that after the dead body of Bin Laden was recovered, two U.S. helicopter flew to the site and carried away the dead body of Bin Laden.

Initial reports said that at least one was killed and two others were injured in the crash. At least two houses were engulfed by the huge fire caused by the crashed chopper.

Rescue team rushed to the site shortly after the crash was reported and the armed forces cordoned off the area and launched a search operation there.

:Dancing-Banana:

[Julie]

AM,

Forget the neighborhood and the retired military living very close by....

The only question you should answer is why would Osama seek refuge for so many years in Pakistan? Osama is from Saudia Arabia.....why Pakistan?

Just answer that one question. Do keep in mind also, that other known terrorists have been found in Pakistan as well. Why do they ALL end up in Pakistan?

[InExile]

It was not just any other neighborhood, it was a cantonment, residents have spoken about being routinely stopped; searched, houses entered; soldiers patrolling.

Now I have no idea if the level of security should or should not have alerted the local authorities to the house Bin Laden was found in; but it basically comes back to there being no conclusive evidence either way as a poster above has said. But the location cannot be totally insignificant either as you seem to be saying.

None of this would have been an issue if Bin Laden had been found in a cave in Waziristan, or even a slum in Karachi. Its the location; next to a large Pakistani military base is why this thread has carried on for 60 pages almost.

[Agnostic Muslim]

One can argue complicity, when the ISI originally supported the Taliban and therefore Bin Laden, in the past. That's sufficient enough for me. The rest, is icing on the cake.

Then one can also argue US complicity since the US also hadiplomatic contacts with the Taliban for a while when promoting American oil companies for the oil and gas pipelines from central Asia, not to mention US complicity in the genocide of indigenous Guatemalans, and the massacres of innocent Argentinians, Cleans etc.

[Double Edge]

If you dont pay any attention as to what US aid is supposed to be funding...Electrical infastructure, Schools and Hospitals. How happy do you think the people of Pak would be to see that cut off. That would be over 7.5 billion dollars from the US alone over a five year period which would slump beyond slump Pakistans economy. If you didnt already know Pakistan is already billions in debt to International Monitary Fund , The World Bank and other International backers. Shes basically broke without all of this aid. And loosing this aid would no doubt cripple its military in a heartbeat and therefore the populace.

In the end its OUR lawmakers that gives billions in aid to Pakistan.

It is also the American people that elect those lawmakers that give this aid and if threatened with their jobs what side do you think they will choose?;)

The US people could put an end to that Aid faster then you think since Election Season isint very far off.;)

True, if ever your congress decides to move on it. Not gonna happen before 2013.

Meanwhile Pakistan chooses to target (when it feels like) Pakistani Taliban (home grown) and the ones that target Pakistans interior and in the same time leaves untouched factions like Haqqani which exclusively focuses on attacks on NATO in Afghanistan as well as Afghans security forces. They also tend to believe these two groups will somehow come to power after the US leaves Afghanistan. Pakistans Itelligence Services are also long believed in bed with the group that targets attacks in India such as Lashkar-e-Taiba.

Yep, this is basically the issue they are selective and none of us has any choice

[Dago]

Then one can also argue US complicity since the US also hadiplomatic contacts with the Taliban for a while when promoting American oil companies for the oil and gas pipelines from central Asia, not to mention US complicity in the genocide of indigenous Guatemalans, and the massacres of innocent Argentinians, Cleans etc.

No one was asserting merely diplomatic exchange nor contacts that could also be made of the complicity of your Government with indigenous Guatemalans, innocent Argentinians and Cleans etc. As the majority of the Governments world wide have diplomatic exchange. I find it humorous of you connecting support of a Government with diplomatic exchange. Maybe support like in 1971 in Bangladesh? Al-Badr and Al-Shams?

The ISI had merely more contact than just some oil contracts and diplomatic exchange. Your ISI were practically allies of the Taliban. Sharing of intelligence etc etc..

AM we will elaborate on this subject further ;

[Parihaka]

An alternative Pakistani viewpoint

COMMENT: The hornet is dead, near the nest —Dr Mohammad Taqi
The Pakistani brass was caught red-handed and was not given an option to say no to the operation. But the Pakistani deep state still does not get it, for its ideological sympathies are elsewhere

Doveryai, no proveryai! This Russian proverb, meaning ‘trust, but verify’, popularised by Vladimir Lenin and later by Ronald Reagan, has not rung truer than in the events surrounding the assassination of Osama bin Laden (OBL) earlier this week. And we may see it applied much more intensely in the months to come.

Phone calls from friends in Abbottabad about an ongoing military action there, were enough to suggest that something big was happening in what the locals had always believed to be an ISI-run facility, but the e-mail news alert from The Wall Street Journal announcing OBL’s death was still a major surprise. Against the norms of punditry, this time one hoped that we were wrong and this was not happening in Pakistan. But it was, and yes, we now stand vindicated: all of us who had been saying and writing for years that the US’s most wanted man was not under the protection of any major Pashtun tribe but was guarded by the clan that has anointed itself as the guardians of Pakistan’s ‘ideological’ and geographical frontiers. It is this same clan that had actually codified in its curriculum that “you are the selected lords; you are the cream of the nation”. Where else could this syllabus have been taught but at the Pakistan Military Academy, Kakul — less than a mile from OBL’s last lair?

There is no polite way of saying it but these masters of Pakistan’s fortunes got egg on their face and that too with the whole world watching. A Peshawarite calling in on a television show said it most aptly: “Koilay ki dallali mein haath to kalay hotay hein per moonh bhi kala hota hai” (Those, whose business is foul, not only get their hands dirty but a blackened face too). But they still have the nerve to say with a straight face that a million-dollar fortress under their nose had been “off their radar”!

Not only that but they also have the gall to mobilise the right-wing media to create the smokescreen of sovereignty yet again while simultaneously playing up their ‘role’ in support of the US action in Abbottabad. The world, however, is not buying that in a cantonment city, the army — which keeps track of every inch of land around its facilities — did not know what was going on in the high-walled compound next to its primary training academy. The paid spin masters will have to do better than this. No matter what President Asif Zardari or his ghostwriter is made to say in op-ed articles in US papers, it is the top brass that is under scrutiny. Using the civilian political leadership as the human shield is not going to work, as the calculus has changed dramatically.

Barack Obama’s token acknowledgment of Pakistan’s non-specific cooperation is being construed by the Pakistani establishment and its minions to imply that the US can be taken for a ride again. It is too early for the specifics to surface but conversations with several sources in Washington and Pakistan point only to the deep mistrust that the US has had vis-à-vis Pakistan. There was no deal initiated by General Shuja Pasha to ‘trade in’ OBL for a bigger Pakistani role in Afghanistan. On the contrary, in response to the chest thumping by the Pakistani security establishment and its ultra right-wing political acolytes, they were confronted with damning evidence about the Haqqani network and possibly the Quetta Shura, while the OBL lead was not shared. The no-fly zone over Pakistan was created through phone calls, minutes after the OBL operation got underway. While the Pakistani brass is clutching at straws like blaming the ‘two Pashtun guards’ for protecting OBL’s compound, it was caught red-handed and was not given an option to say no to the operation. But the Pakistani deep state still does not get it, for its ideological sympathies are elsewhere.

Hillary Clinton’s nuanced diplomatic statements notwithstanding, the mood of the US leadership is almost reflective of the immediate post-9/11 days and was conveyed well by Senator Carl Levin in his remark: “(Pakistan has) a lot of explaining to do ... I think the army and the intelligence of Pakistan have plenty of questions that they should be answering.” In a complete paradigm shift, any leverage that the Pakistani junta was hoping to gain from the bravado that started with the Raymond Davis affair has been lost completely. What will follow is a steady demand within the US to hold Pakistan’s feet to the fire. While maintaining a semblance of a working relationship, a very tough line will be adopted in private. The question bound to come up is not just why Pakistan was hanging on to OBL but also if there was any connection of its operatives to the 9/11 tragedy.

From a tactical standpoint, the OBL operation is likely to serve as a template for future action against the jihadist leadership hiding in Pakistan, especially with General David Petraeus assuming his new role in the near future. To get closer to the strategic objective of a certain level of stability within Afghanistan and potentially a political reconciliation there, it is imperative for the US to neutralise the next two key hurdles, i.e. the Quetta Shura and the Haqqani network. Both these entities have so far been able to evade the US’s reach, thanks to the Pakistani security establishment’s patronage.

Members of the Haqqani clan have been roaming freely in the vicinity of Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Peshawar. Khalil Haqqani has conducted several meetings in the previous few months to broker the ‘peace deal’ for the Kurram Agency. It is inconceivable that he could act without the knowledge of the Pakistani security agencies. Similarly, Quetta is home to the Pakistan Army’s XII Corps, ISI regional headquarters, the Balochistan Frontier Corps, an army recruitment centre, the Pakistan Air Force base Samungli and the Pakistan Army’s prestigious Command and Staff College. One wonders if the Pakistani brass would still be able to say that they do not know the whereabouts of Mullah Omar.

A window of opportunity perhaps still exists for Pakistan to make a clean break with the past but its incoherent blame-game and constantly changing story says otherwise. The Pakistani establishment has given the world very little reason to trust it without verifying — unless, of course, another hornet is to be missed hiding near a major nest.

[Double Edge]

It was not just any other neighborhood, it was a cantonment, residents have spoken about being routinely stopped; searched, houses entered; soldiers patrolling.

Now I have no idea if the level of security should or should not have alerted the local authorities to the house Bin Laden was found in; but it basically comes back to there being no conclusive evidence either way as a poster above has said. But the location cannot be totally insignificant either as you seem to be saying.

They knew. I never bought this lame pretext of not knowing and this is why thier PM gilani makes the ridiculous charge that the whole world is to blame. You're not getting any answers because they do not have to answer this question. Nobody is going to do anything adverse to them over it. You want OBL take him.

Better the US does it than Pakistan. They don't want to be remembered as the country that sold him out. Reduced blowback from the fundies this way. And so far watching this circus would say they've done an admirable job of such.

Everybody going down ratholes that lead no where :)

None of this would have been an issue if Bin Laden had been found in a cave in Waziristan, or even a slum in Karachi. Its the location; next to a large Pakistani military base is why this thread has carried on for 60 pages almost.

Sure it would have because those places are still in Pakistan. This is the point.