Osama Bin Laden is dead and his corpse is in US hands.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Agnostic Muslim, with due respect, I know you mean well and love your country and I know you yourself didn't help harbor bin Laden, but it's very very hard for us to swallow that certain people in leadership positions in your country did not either. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

Are you a dog? If not, what credibility does your 'smell test' have?

If you have any evidence or rebuttals to the points I made, please offer them. Your argument above is pretty much 'I want to believe in X irrespective of the lack of evidence supporting X, and I don't care what you say'.

If you want to be taken seriously while implicating the leadership of a nation in supporting the worlds most wanted terrorist, for no apparent motive, then better offer some credible evidence to back it up. That 'smell test' might just be suggesting that its time you emptied the trash in your home.

[highsea]

Senior military officials confirmed that Pakistan army troops were providing backup support when the United States began its operations inside the compound. And residents in the area said that two hours before the operation was launched, Pakistani army personnel ordered them to switch off their lights inside and outside their homes and remain indoors until further orders.

“The army personnel cordoned off the entire area long before we heard the sounds of helicopters hovering over the area,” said Zulfikar Ahmed, who lives in the town of Bilal, where bin Laden’s compound is located.

A senior Pakistani intelligence official told GlobalPost that intelligence officers in Pakistan and the United States had, in fact, shared information about bin Laden’s presence a week before U.S. President Barack Obama approved the operation.

“Gen. David Petraeus had paid an extraordinary visit to Islamabad on April 25, and held a one-on-one meeting with Gen. Kayani [Pakistani army chief], in which they discussed the details of the operation,” the official said.

Osama bin Laden | Pakistan

Lies, Lies, and More Lies.

A "senior pakistani intelligence official"? "Senior Pakistani military officers?"

The very same people who harbored OBL in luxury for 5 years?

Do you people really think Americans are that stupid?

What was the need for the raid at all? You could have just walked in and arrested him and handed him over. We would have paid anything you asked.

Give us a break and quit with the bullshit. Your military/intelligence establishment was harboring him in a place they thought we would never find him.

They were wrong, and we are waiting for some kind of credible story.

But there is none, because the PA and ISI people who permitted this were on OBL's side, it's as simple as that. Just as they side with Hakkani, just as they side with the Taliban.

The only thing for Pakistan to do is turn over the guilty parties.

Stop playing stupid and accept the fact that your military and intelligence establishment is supporting terrorists. That's something we have known for a long time, but have up till now chosen to look the other way.

Obviously that was a mistake on our part.

A.M.- you may think our lawmakers are backing down, but they haven't heard from the American public yet. Don't count your chickens. There will be a reckoning for this.

[rj1]

Are you a dog? If not, what credibility does your 'smell test' have?

My smell test has credibility with my gut.

If you have any evidence or rebuttals to the points I made, please offer them.

Like bin Laden living a half-mile from your West Point?

If you want to be taken seriously while implicating the leadership of a nation in supporting the worlds most wanted terrorist, for no apparent motive, then better offer some credible evidence to back it up.

I have no credible evidence to prove Pakistani leadership was involved in hiding Osama bin Laden, just as you have no credible evidence to prove Pakistani leadership was not involved in hiding Osama bin Laden. We do know where he was living which was in a conspicuous location as far as the Pakistani military was concerned even if you don't believe they were involved. Fair enough?

I read this on a Pakistani defense board, forum.pakistanidefence.com/ , (from a Pakistani poster) earlier today and this pretty much sums everything up for possible scenarios:

Its moments like these when you start to lose all hope. No matter which way you slice it, ye hua woh hua ... its looks terrible for us every way.

Situation 1

We did not have a damn clue that OBL had been living besides Pakistan Military Academy for years and to top it off we failed to detect the US intrusion. They came, did their business and left without any of our forces being aware. If this is true we are the epitome of incompetence. Not only would this be an intelligence failure of tectonic proportions but also an air defense failure.

Situation 2

We did not know OBL's exact hiding place but cooperated in the operation by allowing them to enter our air space and take him out. This situation is a bit more respectable but not by much. The fact that OBL could live a stone throw away from the Pakistan Military Academy in a city where the ratio of army personnel to civilians is positive for the forces is a disgrace. If this situation is true we are victims of incomprehensive incompetence. If true we really need to start asking some tough questions about the credit we give to the ISI and Pak Army on a regular basis

Situation 3

We knew OBL was there and just kept mum. Don't really need to expand on this and what it means. If this is true God help Pakistan in the long run.

Situation 4

We shared information about the house in question with the US and allowed the intrusion but failed to realize that the compound was being occupied by OBL. This is the version being given out by the Pakistan foreign service save the permission of the intrusion. The Pakistan FO has said that we failed to analyze the information properly but we were passing the data to the US from 2009 about this particular compound. This again is beyond my comprehension. How could we be so incompetent that we failed to investigate something that is in the heart of a military garrison. The fact that we knew about it and didn't follow up makes it worse. Again, if this is true the level of ineptitude is astounding.

As I said previously, our choices boil down to collusion or incompetence. Take your pick.

[gunnut]

United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group (DEVGRU)

When SEAL Team Six was first created it was devoted exclusively to counter-terrorism with a worldwide maritime responsibility; its objectives typically included targets such as ships, oil rigs, naval bases, or other civilian or military bases that were accessible from the sea or inland waterways. SEAL Team Six was originally also tasked with covertly infiltrating international hot spots in order to carry out reconnaissance or security assessments of U.S. military bases and U.S. Embassies.

DEVGRU's full mission is classified but is thought to include preemptive, pro-active counterterrorist operations, counter-proliferation (efforts to prevent the spread of both conventional weapons and weapons of mass destruction), as well as assassination or recovery of high-value targets (HVTs) from unfriendly nations.[12][13] DEVGRU is one of only a handful of U.S. special mission units authorized to use preemptive actions against terrorists and their facilities. DEVGRU and the Army's Delta Force train together and deploy together on counter-terrorist missions usually as part of a joint special operations task force (JSOTF).

Operational deployments

Is this the same unit that the liberal loons dubbed "Dick Cheney death squad?"

Dick Cheney Had a Death Squad | Democrats.com

Gawker — Today's gossip is tomorrow's news

[Dago]

Please, take a look at the google earth SAT images of Abbottabad - the town is more than just this one neighborhood that so many seem to think the ISI should have focused on for some odd reason. Your argument is still a rather odd one of 'this house was bigger than the others, and so was suspicious' - that is an absurd reason to put a residence under surveillance.

abbottabad pakistan bin laden - Google Maps

You are the one who omitted the place was raided in the first place. See your obviously countering anything you say WRT to it "not being suspicious".

Here we go again - For a nation, with such internal threats, you direct your resource too domestic activities. Whether this be political spying, eavesdropping on religious places of worship, and what not. Your ISI, does extensive domestic spying, on your fellow Pakistani's. This also includes, large real estate purchases, flowing of money, and frankly, a large compound with barbed wire. This is very local, with a City of very important officials, this place would have adequate amount of security and intelligence apparatus. From local ISI members with conjunction of local police and military intelligence officials. So this group of people, like you imply, not a whole bunch is going on in that town! They probably do the usual monitoring, and they also monitor new construction that takes place, especially when it is close to other officials. Probably starts with a local Police or what not, or maybe just gossip from these "high end" officials, to get the ball over to the ISI. Local officials, are like a neighborhood watch, I am sure they are going to pay attention to new construction sites, especially when it's right damn next door in the middle of the neighborhood. That's just nature. I'm not saying, they will put the damn place under surveillance at this point, but it will sure be brought too attention, and at the very least do a bit of intelligence gathering, and run a name of the purchaser of land, and find out a bit more about him. The red flag, should be immediately when this guy was from the tribal areas! This area is practically a war zone, and you have someone moving in this relatively quiet city with high level officals, and people don't think twice about the risk? these are the things - ISI - should be looking at, when tasked in this city that they are in - the inflow of people from Tribal areas, that could possibly stage attacks. You would agree, outsider, from tribal area = A higher risk type person. Similar too the profiling of Terrorists? One that would be a priority would it not? Analogy a bit like, a Afghani, or that separatist area you were talking about earlier, where it has large amount of terrorist traffic, you would think those would be the guys you would be looking at?

[Dago]

Is this the same unit that the liberal loons dubbed "Dick Cheney death squad?"

Dick Cheney Had a Death Squad | Democrats.com

Gawker — Today's gossip is tomorrow's news

It would be disturbing, if this unit or JSOC didn't report to the DOD. Ultimately, that's the Chain of Command, no? Just my opinion on the speculation, first I heard, or read that article.

[Double Edge]

Situation 3

We knew OBL was there and just kept mum. Don't really need to expand on this and what it means. If this is true God help Pakistan in the long run.

I'd take this one with the qualifier that they did not keep mum, they decided it was time to cash him in. Thats how you got him in the first place.

As i suspected, lots of hot air from Congress but nothing more concrete as calculated by the mandarins behind this whole affair.

[tinymarae]

Some people on here will like Jon Stewart's take last night on bin Laden's location he was caught at. :D (couple minutes in)

May 03, 2011 - Rachel Maddow - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central

Monday night was pretty good too: May 02, 2011 - Philip K. Howard - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central

+1
Jon Stewart perfectly surmises what we are thinking right now. If you cannot be bothered to watch the whole episode that rj1 linked, below are the individual clips.

To Kill a Mockingturd - Pakistani Intelligence

To Kill a Mockingturd - Pervez Musharraf Lies About Osama bin Laden

Is this the same unit that the liberal loons dubbed "Dick Cheney death squad?"

Dick Cheney Had a Death Squad | Democrats.com

Gawker — Today's gossip is tomorrow's news

gunny, could you please not start a left vs right p!ssing contest in this thread? As Rachel Maddow said - Bin Laden is going to be dead forever and you will have plenty of time to score political points over this, but now is not the time ;)

[gunnut]

gunny, could you please not start a left vs right p!ssing contest in this thread? As Rachel Maddow said - Bin Laden is going to be dead forever and you will have plenty of time to score political points over this, but now is not the time ;)

Just want to give credit where credit is due and point out the double standard the liberal media has.

[Double Edge]

Of course, all leads will be pursued, but is the US going to be sharing any intelligence with Pakistan, which it did not do 'officially' in the Bin Laden Operation?

You still don't get the reason for this ?

Please do so - we Pakistanis, that the liberal fascists in Pakistan call the 'ghairat brigade', would like nothing better than to see US aid cut off and any US leverage over Pakistan ended or severely limited.

Yeah, that might kick things off and get the ppl out on the street and demand better.

As I often argue - Pakistan has the economy and resources to generate significantly more revenue than it takes in through aid and loans, and it needs a 'kick in the pants', such as an end to US aid and IMF support, to demolish any vestiges of support the sellout Zardari's and Sharif's enjoy, and bring on board nationalist political leaders who will implement the necessary tax and institutional reforms and take back ownership of Pakistan's foreign policy - even if they are more 'rightist' in their religious views.

What's curious here is you don't mention at all your army which everybody knows is the real boss in the country . You just want a change of civilian leadership. A leadership that will always come second to the army. Well, what good is that going to do ? This isn't change, this is merely window dressing.

This is why your civilians leaders do not have the respect of your people, because they're really powerless.

[Dago]

AM, you still haven't addressed this point.

This is a military cantonment area. Pakistani soldiers routinely patrol the streets. Residents say they are checked for IDs, and even houses are searched sometimes. While the house isn't a palatial mansion as was first suggested; it is certainly somewhat larger than the other houses around; and the high walls and barbed wires make it stand out; atleast to a small extent.

I really dont see how such local authorities in an area like that would not have gotten suspicious.

I agree. You would think also, the potential of foreign agents, of say an Indian businessman buying and building next too ex-Officials so he could turn someone would be more of a priority than domestic terrorist from the tribal area killing civilians! The priority is astounding! If he were to be an Indian, he would be tried on espionage! But if it's some middle aged men, from Tribal areas, who cares if he has contacts with AQ, or worse off LMFAO, Osama living in luxury right in one of the best neighborhoods of Pakistan!

[tinymarae]

Just want to give credit where credit is due and point out the double standard the liberal media has.

Just hate to see a thread this important locked as AR warned.

EVERYONE......

Just went back and reread the last 24 hours of posts....that's 45 minutes of my life back that you all owe me!

Things appear to have calmed down again....good.

Knock off the flaming and the name calling...keep it professional.

If things get ugly again I will come back and lock the thread.

If you have joined WAB and are entering into discussion here for the first time and have not checked in the Members Introductions thread located here Member Introductions you better get over there and introduce yourself to the membership. Failure to do so will result in a banning....I haven't banned anyone yet in my tenure as a mod....don't make me do it today.

Keep the noise down...you are harshing my mellow.

Carry on.

Oh come on. Your bruins defeated the habs and haven't choked against the flyers(yet). Nothing should harsh your mellow ;)

[Dago]

So is that your argument? I must say its quite a pathetic argument, just because a house is bigger does not mean that there are terrorists hiding inside there. Heck, even my parents home is bigger than this house. Should ISI come and check out our house too?

Nothing that they already do, if you were to be a competent spy agency looking to thwart the influx of fundamentalism in your neighborhoods. Yet, I guess your ISI, doesn't care when a "suspicious, and larger compound than anything else in the area, ringed with barbwire and multiple gates, with no phone or internet" get's built right next to your west point, or next to your security services buildings, or right across from a little girls school! Even the residents could call it out, that this was different than the other buildings, and they did notice the barbed wire and large walls, and thought that they wanted privacy or maybe made enemys accumulating there wealth! Are you telling me your citizens do better detective work than your ISI? They jumped on one of the issues, enemy's! They reached conclusions of privacy! Wanted security! All that security for what? Maybe from the Government! You would think that conclusion would be made. You have issues being raised here, the person involved in conflict, wishing to have privacy, from the Tribal areas a current domestic war zone, you think there be a bit of vetting no?


If you actually, care about being successful, I guess that only comes when the other person happens to be Indian. Domestic terrorism? Heck nah! Second priority too the influence of those damn Indians!

Oh and I haven't stated this yet, or has it been in the thread, that there were other capture of AQ members in this city. Higher up, people.

Still thinking like an American, houses like these are not unusual in Pakistan

Actually comparing it to the local environment. The large compound, relatively lack design, and lack of landscaping. The immense amount of security. The lack of phone/internet. Even local residents came to the same conclusion, that this person wished privacy, had enemy's, and very conservative, and spoke perfect Pashtu that was from the tribal areas! All red flags, IMHO if your living next to ex retired Generals, Ministers, and ISI officials! At worse, you would think of a possible Indian connection! Or foreign spy service!

Just for too know, you probably have thousands of Indian spy safe houses operating in your country! You guys really do fantastic job!

[Dago]

Just hate to see a thread this important locked as AR warned.

Left V Right thread - http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ame...ficate-15.html

[Triple C]

Some people on here will like Jon Stewart's take last night on bin Laden's location he was caught at. :D (couple minutes in)

May 03, 2011 - Rachel Maddow - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central

Monday night was pretty good too: May 02, 2011 - Philip K. Howard - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central

"What more did you want--what evidence do you need--abject cruelty to school children?!"