India And China

[Officer of Engineers]

Might does not equal right. That is what is known as logical fallacy; argumentum ad baculum (arguing with a stick).

Name me one time that a determined army was stopped by right. You must be shitting me! Might ALWAYS equal right. Stalin vs Hitler. Who's right? The one who won but both are monsters but no one will dare tell that to Stalin's face.

A. Which 'false allegations'? B. Why do not have to right to say the truth?

Your so called Trumpkin is all but lies. Your proof are all imaginary dots that only you connect that even Mueller could not fathom. Even when pointed out to you that nothing you ever stated was ever found to be the truth by Mueller, you still bring that up. Your Steele Dossier has been debunked.

I am quite happy to put my hands up and criticise those who I have foolish voted for in the past if/when they do foolish or underhanded things. Are you saying that a person must a passport of a country to criticise that countries Government? The whole of world criticises illegal actions by other countries... Napoleon, Hitler, Putin/Crimea...

Napoleon and Hitler lost. No one raised a fuss about Stalin's Iron Curtain and Putin ain't losing any sleep over Crimea. No one is marching an army into Crimea and no one is liberating DNR and LNR. Might is right.

C. If this is ALL about India "censoring you" does not China?

That's precisely the point. We DO NOT WANT EITHER! BOTH ARE THE SAME THING.

And why did you raise Kashmir if that is your sole issue?

Because I strongly doubt you know, let alone, understand India's other ethnic problems. I don't pretend to be an expert on India's problems but at the very least, I take an interest what our Indian posters say. You?

Tell me something, if India is this wonderful democratic land of honey, why ain't 1 billion Chinese crossing the border into India?

[Double Edge]

Colonel, you now have 2000 posts. Congratulations. And now we are in a new thread. Lol, hahahaha.

I have no idea where this one popped up from : )

What are we discussing again ?

[Double Edge]

So you prefer India to have a right to censor us? Because this is what this entire topic is all about!

Am waiting for you to post some source on this. Censoring ESPN & NBA ?

[Double Edge]

The Kashmiris are disagreeing with you.

Just a minority on the Pak payroll that is getting smaller with each passing day. A major separatist leader bowed out recently. No gain to be had in the present environment. Rabble rousing like he did in the past.

Let me turn this around. If you are pro India in J&K there are gunmen waiting for you.

There are also henchmen out to get people that don't tow the party line. Where in India does this happen ? no where else. Maybe some parts of the NE which is another disturbed area. So this disagreeing was carefully enforced and which mechanism is being dismantled with time.

Perpetuated by the erstwhile ruling parties that made a killing from a conflict economy.

The security apparatus in J&K no longer reports to the state administration but to the Interior ministry in Delhi.

Abrogating 370 removes the pillar this 'otherness' stems from.

Just 40 families had a stranglehold over the economy & affairs of that state. This is hardly democratic. Which is why voter turnouts were abysmal because who wants to preserve the writ of these people that too with Delhi's blessing until recently. This is what Kashmiris opposed and they registered that by not participating. Who wouldn't ?

Prabha Khanna has made this point quite well. Posted her interview & articles in the kashmir thread. Part of the J&K study group she really opened my eyes to the reality of the place. Quiet as a door mouse she doesn't make waves like some others. Barkha Dutt in particular who was no where to be seen post 370. Didn't even visit J&K after. Why not ? no more breakfasts with Farouk Abdulla where she would get her talking points ?

J&K didn't even have village councils until recently. That is the basic administrative building block every where else in the country. If something is not right in the village you approach the village council. Couldn't do that in J&K. This drive met with good participation. Of course the ruling families boycotted the elections because they never had any interest in these low level affairs.

All the propaganda i got fed over the years by Indian journalists on the payroll of those that wanted a certain perception to take hold. It's not only you that thought these people disagreed but a good part of India too and we kept on pumping money into the place. The state spends ten times per person in J&K than anywhere else in the country and yet things just went from bad to worse. India is 90% responsible for the mess in J&K. Let there be no doubt about that.

Something had to give.

You serious? India is cobbled with the Pakistani monkey on her back. As much as the US spouts about being India's friend, we're not going to get that monkey off your back.

They do it by not interfering and they've not. Exemplified by the former Asst. SecState of South Asia, Alice Wells in a recent hearing on India. Also posted in the Kashmir thread. She put forward our position better than any Indian bureaucrat could have done.

No major power other than China has interfered in the 370 decision. And that is what used to go on. Not just public statements against but direct interference as happened in Clinton's first term. Those days are long gone.

Close to a year in the Paks have zero to show for their diplomatic efforts thus far. It's not hard to understand why when they don't have a leg to stand on. Never did. That they could perpetuate their fiction this long due to the advantage in PR and earlier favourable position with the west.

There's another name for that. It's called an occupation. Not here to debate who's right or wrong but we in the West have a right to spout as much garbage and truth as we want .

Only occupiers are Pakistan & China of Indian territory

I've lived long enough to learn that you can always get around pieces of paper. The USSR was dissolved. Taiwan got kicked out of the P5. Yugoslavia broke up. India refusing to acknowledge Russian inheritance of Soviet loans. Get enough lawyers together and they can come up with language to do anything ... as long as you have the guns backing them up.

We do

It's the insurgent with the guns you have to convince. To paraphrase myself. All insurgencies, low level or not, are ugly and there's no clean way to fight it. Never has. Never will.

Do keep in mind the age of these insurgents is in their late teens. People in 25 - 30 age group no longer get into insurgency. That happened in the 90s and they found out the lies the hard way.

The Pulwama bomber that precipitated the Balakote strike was 22.

Pros against teenagers isn't going to last very long. They have to infiltrate older people across the border to command them and we get those guys after a while.

We battle them on a daily basis, we average around 200 of them dead each year since 2016 when Operation All out began. This can only be sustained through the cooperation of the locals. That means they support us. They are the silent majority no foreign journalist gets to talk to. Because the handlers they use won't take them there.

The clean way if there is one is by keeping collateral damage to a minimum.

That takes its toll in soldiers lives. The payoff is no one talks about Kashmir any more. The HR people are pretty much over and done with.

India is not going to permit some Islamic state to take hold in the union. J&K will be absorbed one way or another. We've removed their statehood for the moment. They have been relegated to a Union Territory but with an assembly. If they behave themselves we will restore their statehood in the future. Tough love.

Assembly elections will be held once redistricting completes. Due to the unrest more people moved to Jammu which would have more seats in assembly than Kashmir as was formerly the case. This one area dictated affairs over the entire state which included Ladakh. All history now.

We've stopped doing the wrong things, remains to be seen if can stick to the right path.

[Oracle]

I have no idea where this one popped up from : )

What are we discussing again ?

When me and the good old man were having arguments, his post count crossed 2000. So I congratulated him. He didn't once say thank you. :D

[Double Edge]

When me and the good old man were having arguments, his post count crossed 2000. So I congratulated him. He didn't once say thank you. :D

I mean this thread, only noticed it today.

On occasion i will leave the place only to discover some new thread that exploded into the 3rd page by the time i got back : D

[snapper]

Name me one time that a determined army was stopped by right. You must be shitting me! Might ALWAYS equal right. Stalin vs Hitler. Who's right? The one who won but both are monsters but no one will dare tell that to Stalin's face.

In any competition of strength naturally strength will prevail but most of human interaction is not directly connected to such competitions and truth and right/wrong guide human action far more than considerations of strength on an everyday basis. Things (a statement/proposition) is either true or false: You may force a person to say they are a goldfish but they remain the person they were.

Your so called Trumpkin is all but lies. Your proof are all imaginary dots that only you connect that even Mueller could not fathom. Even when pointed out to you that nothing you ever stated was ever found to be the truth by Mueller, you still bring that up. Your Steele Dossier has been debunked.

Mueller said he would have prosecuted Trumpkin but for the DoJ 'guidance' and said it was upto Congress to exercise it's right.
Which part of the Steele dossier (which was initially payed for by US Republicans) has been proven untrue? List of convicts:

Michael Cohen
Paul Manafort
George Popadopoulos
Richard Pinedo
Alex van der Zwaan
Roger Stone
Rick Gates
Michael Flynn

Oh and the charged; 13 Muscovite national and entities. 12 Muscovite Intel Officers. Konstantin Klimnik.

But you maintain there is no linkage?

Napoleon and Hitler lost. No one raised a fuss about Stalin's Iron Curtain and Putin ain't losing any sleep over Crimea. No one is marching an army into Crimea and no one is liberating DNR and LNR. Might is right.

The reason why such monsters are overcome is because they are monsters and those who recognise their lies and injustices group together to eventually bring them down.

Because I strongly doubt you know, let alone, understand India's other ethnic problems. I don't pretend to be an expert on India's problems but at the very least, I take an interest what our Indian posters say. You?

I do not claim to understand India's ethnic problems to recognise that it does not force steralise Islamic Ladies as the Chinese do.

Tell me something, if India is this wonderful democratic land of honey, why ain't 1 billion Chinese crossing the border into India?

Nobody said India was a land of honey. One Hong Kong democrat has I believe received sanctuary in the UK which is also offering a 'citizenship plan' for other Hong Kongers who may perhaps wish to leave. The Uigurs cannot leave their gulag 're-education centres' and would most likely go to Pakistan due to their faith.

[Double Edge]

Exactly how would India provide additional strategic or economic support for the US vis-a-vis China?

Deeper military ties on the Chinese western border and additional trade to offset disruption with Chinese trade via the trade war. The obvious ones.

Here's one for strategic

Xi’s Show of Force Against India Is a Strategic Gift for Trump | Bloomberg | Jul 15 2020

Whether that should say India's show of force instead i leave for you to decide : )

[Double Edge]

The part i don't get when it comes to China.

China could have bagged India back in the 50s by settling the border. Nehru was all for good relations with China.

Had that been the case would the Dalai Lama have taken up residence in India in the late 50s ? his first choice was Burma but that changed to India.

I mean these people occupied the whole of Tibet without any Indian resistance & East Turkestan yet still make claims on small areas of Indian territory, to this very day on the basis of flimsy selective historical claims. They accept the British defined borders of Burma & Afghanistan but have trouble accepting the same for India.

They even fought war with us in 1962 which we ackowledge as a loss yet it is China that lost more territory in the bargain (!)

Which winning side loses more territory after winning a fight !!

ALL FOR WHAT ?

They want to be the top power in Asia.

Strikes me as a major strategic blunder on the part of China

We've put up with this crap for three generations now. I don't see a way back.

[Oracle]

I mean this thread, only noticed it today.

On occasion i will leave the place only to discover some new thread that exploded into the 3rd page by the time i got back : D

This discussion was in the American political thread. I saw GVChamp (post # 7 in this thread itself) and the Colonel's post, and started my arguments. Joe forked this discussion into this thread. :D

[Double Edge]

This discussion was in the American political thread. I saw GVChamp (post # 7 in this thread itself) and the Colonel's post, and started my arguments. Joe forked this discussion into this thread. :D

Bingo!

[Oracle]

Bingo!

Read this thread again from post # 1, and you'd understand why staff created this thread. From American politics, topic got hijacked into India and China. I didn't start the fire, it was already burning, and the Colonel was screaming. :D

[Double Edge]

An interesting way of looking at US - China relations.

Instead of Cold war 2.0 think of it like the Sino Soviet split

This is the Sino US split

https://twitter.com/JulianGewirtz/st...49269969260545

Both super powers wanted to get to know China and then wanted to cut off relations

India is no different and we didn't even get as close as the other two.

[Double Edge]

Exactly how would India provide additional strategic or economic support for the US vis-a-vis China?

This paper might give you some answers

https://twitter.com/joshuatwhite/sta...09920888082432

Was listening to an interview John Bolton gave to a local channel and the thinking went if Trump gets his trade deal and a second term he isn't going to ride China hard any more. Does not need to as there are no more votes to win.

Some people think this implies India gets hung out to dry. I'm not entirely clear why they say that.

[Oracle]

Actually I go alot further back then that. China was WWII ally-Cold War Enemy-Cold War Ally-Present Day Strategic Competitor (we ain't going away from China made microwaves anytime soon and China still needs to sell those microwaves). And I lived through three of those Cold War Enemy/Ally-Present Day Strategic Competitor. I've also saw Moscow gone from enemy to friend back to enemy. So to say it's all roses between the US and India ... well my cynicism ain't seeing it.

You're right.

FMCT. Effectively stops all Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons research and production.

Pakistan did our dirty work by blocking CD. We have enough fissile material in stock.

You've missed the point. The Americans couldn't care less. We've allied ourselves with the likes of Stalin against Hitler and Mao/Deng against Brezhnev. Stalin/Mao/Deng were no angels. So tiny Pakistan don't even register a blurp.

Also, we know that someday that India would be a challenge to our interests. That's just the way things have historically worked. So keeping Pakistan around is somewhat handy.

The bold part is interesting. When has Britain or France or say even Germany been a threat to the US post WWII.

Pakistan is past its sell-by date. A stronger Pakistan will never be an existential threat to India. If Pakistan is the monkey US is looking for, then it has not worked, nor will it ever work.

RE 1971: you do know the USS ENTERPRISE was nearby.

Soviets were closer. Didn't stop us from cutting Pakistan in two.

Why not? Someone else have done the heavy lifting. Time to cash in.

Hmmmm.

Generational skip. Even today, the West is still heavily reliant on copper POT (Plain Old Telephone) with heavy investments in fibre optic trunks in the 1980s and 90s. The life cycles of those investments have not finished paying off and you can still leverage of off it. Connect your cell tower to the fibre optic trunk and you reduced your airways throughput needs a 1000 fold. India did not have the copper POT investments the US had. Therefore, it was far more economical to use cellular technology. A cell tower is a lot cheaper than running copper to all the houses and between all the towns and cities. Now we're talking 5G but even then, it will still leverage off the existing fibre optic trunks.

This example does not make any sense in this context. I was talking about FB, Google and compared them to Jio.

But would businesses use it? The thing about Google is that it grew the technology and the support. Any app is the Google Playstore is verified by Google, ie, no company does not have to go through the time and expense to test everything under the sun and to make sure that it's not tamper with. Google guarrantees that any app in its playstore has no malware (for whatever that is worth, I'm sure there are legalese somewhere that says they won't pay a cent for damages).

Anything else right now, including Huawei, is use at your own risk.

Why not? Have the world not moved from Sony to Xiaomi? 80% of the world consists of poor people.

Not the first time, the Chinese economy collapsed after tanks rolled through Tianamen Square. DXP broke the sanctions by offerring bargin basement prices. Our relationship with China is ... complicated.

Getting more complicated.

I'll trade you Canadian procurement for yours. We got our subs, tanks, and planes 2nd hand.

American second-hand most probably. Where would we get the spares and technicians for those? Thanks, but no thanks.

You missed the point. Fighting off one single terror strike and even the Kargil War is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 5 million new border crossers looking for a hand out in India.

There is a solution to every problem. Have to think about this scenario.