Pakistan to Canada : Stop griping about troop deaths

[ajtigger]

Terrorists have to be stopped in their tracks.

It does not matter who they are, what religion they profess or which govt supports them.

They are a menace to civilsation.

They are only a menace to the civilization that the particular terrorist group is opposed to. I agree that most of them are opposed to Western civilization, but still--they are opposed to one particular civilization and its influences.

Why should we spend billions (and I emphasize billions) on a military expedition that is simply addressing the Al Qaeda presence in one particular part of the world? In the end, it all comes down to our interests, and, from a strategic point of view, the interests of our allies.

No matter what you may say, eliminating the Taliban in Afghanistan will not eliminate Al Qaeda. This mission simply makes Canada more of a target for terrorists.

[Officer of Engineers]

Oh cmon man! Get yourself straight. Who the heck "goes to war" "because" our citizens our safe??????? What I am "suggesting" is exactly the only benefit that I can milk out of our presence in Afghanistan--and that is, the only benefit for the Canadian people and the reason that we have no choice but to remain there now. If this mission is doing nothing to reinforce our relationship with our Western allies who started this expedition in the first place, then I don't know what it is.

Correct your tone, Mister. I've seen more blood in more mud than your liberal butt would even want to admit. I've served this country. I've lost people. So, don't go preaching to me about what war is. I know exactly what war is.

Canada, as a country, MUST rely on Alliances for our defence. We've relied on NORAD for decades and re-enforced NATO much along the same lines. If the US or Europe falls, we fall. If they hurt, we hurt. Or did the fact that our economy sufferred after the Americans shut down the border after 11 Sept escaped you?

When we took the lead in Afghanistan, we lead from the front. We stand by our Allies so that they don't have to suffer and in turn, we don't have to suffer. For decades, we allow one single brigade to stand for us while everyone else was committing entire corps.

My people are bleeding over there. My Regiment has bled over there. We're not bleeding for the Americans. We bled for Canada. Canada gave her word. Canada kept her word. That has nothing to do about antying up the balance sheet.

Stand down, little man, I've chewed bigger butts than yours.

[Officer of Engineers]

No matter what you may say, eliminating the Taliban in Afghanistan will not eliminate Al Qaeda. This mission simply makes Canada more of a target for terrorists.

Horse pucky! We kill them over there. There's less of them coming over here.

[ajtigger]

Horse pucky! We kill them over there. There's less of them coming over here.

You talk like most of the Al Qaeda members present in Canada are Afghani. Well, I shouldn't say otherwise--I don't really know the statistics--but the way I see it, the more we kill, the more will come, regardless of where we kill them and how many used to come from wherever. An influx of Al Qaeda members could, very well, choose to come in from say, Syria, after we, hypothetically speaking, rid ourselves of the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, to plan an attack here.

They aren't going to congratulate us for killing their compatriots, and I seriously don't want us to prolong the war with missions elsewhere.

[ajtigger]

Correct your tone, Mister. I've seen more blood in more mud than your liberal butt would even want to admit. I've served this country. I've lost people. So, don't go preaching to me about what war is. I know exactly what war is.

I'm not "preaching to you what war is". I am simply laying down the facts. I respect your life experiences, but the matter is not "whether we support the troops or not"--as Canadians, we all support anybody who fights in the name of Canada---but whether or not it is still worth it to put them in harms way, i.e. whether the issue is now stale, is what is to be debated. I personally believe that it isn't stale, and that this mission needs to continue, simply to not chicken out on the Afghani people and to appease our allies.

Canada, as a country, MUST rely on Alliances for our defence. We've relied on NORAD for decades and re-enforced NATO much along the same lines. If the US or Europe falls, we fall. If they hurt, we hurt. Or did the fact that our economy sufferred after the Americans shut down the border after 11 Sept escaped you?

Which is exactly why I keep reinforcing that we have to support our allies.

When we took the lead in Afghanistan, we lead from the front. We stand by our Allies so that they don't have to suffer and in turn, we don't have to suffer. For decades, we allow one single brigade to stand for us while everyone else was committing entire corps.

Good for us. But the issue is now, like I already told you.

Stand down, little man, I've chewed bigger butts than yours.

When I debate, I don't stand down to anyone--whether you are Nelson Mandela or Osama Bin Laden. You have served in the army, and therefore are particularly biased towards military occupations. I have watched these things from the sidelines and made my own opinions about them, based on observations and perspectives that you have been blinded to. I have seen a certain "big picture" from the outside that you haven't from being inside it. We come from different backgrounds. The "size of the butts we have chewed" is not the matter, I respect you for the service you have given our country. Its the fact that we have "chewed different butts". That is what we are debating here. The opinions that we have derived from the compilations of our different life experiences.

[Officer of Engineers]

They aren't going to congratulate us for killing their compatriots, and I seriously don't want us to prolong the war with missions elsewhere.

And they don't have a base to plan their attacks. Get this through your head. Osama's Al Qeida DIED in Afghanistan. We helped kill them and we did help kill them when 3 PPCLI was attached to 187 BCT.

OBL's Lieutenants who planned, orchestrated, and executed the African Embassy bombings, the USS COLE attack, and 11 Sept are dead. We kill them. What's more they no longer have a base to do those attacks.

What's left are pipsqueak attacks (Spain, London, Bali, and even our own little example) when compared to those events.

I personally believe that it isn't stale, and that this mission needs to continue, simply to not chicken out on the Afghani people and to appease our allies.

And what you don't understand is that the mission is FAR more than that. We gave our word. We keep our word. THAT has more to do with our mission than any appeasing. Our word means something, from issuing saving bonds to saying that we will be there AND that we will NOT be there.

When we say yes, we mean yes. When we say no, we mean no.

THAT's what the mission means. We are HONOURED to keep Canada's word.

When I debate, I don't stand down to anyone--whether you are Nelson Mandela or Osama Bin Laden. You have served in the army, and therefore are particularly biased towards military occupations. I have watched these things from the sidelines and made my own opinions about them, based on observations and perspectives that you have been blinded to. I have seen a certain "big picture" from the outside that you haven't from being inside it. We come from different backgrounds. The "size of the butts we have chewed" is not the matter, I respect you for the service you have given our country. Its the fact that we have "chewed different butts". That is what we are debating here. The opinions that we have derived from the compilations of our different life experiences.

I guarrantee you that I see a hell of alot bigger picture than you. Thus far, EVERYONE of your point has been refuted. We're in Afghanistan so that OBL cannot rebuild his HQ and do those Embassy bombings, USS COLE, and 11 Sept again. Instead, he gave his support to those bastards who would rape and murder 12 year old girls.

If you want to give him a free reign and feel no danger from that, then you're completely delusional.

[Ray]

They are only a menace to the civilization that the particular terrorist group is opposed to. I agree that most of them are opposed to Western civilization, but still--they are opposed to one particular civilization and its influences.

Why should we spend billions (and I emphasize billions) on a military expedition that is simply addressing the Al Qaeda presence in one particular part of the world? In the end, it all comes down to our interests, and, from a strategic point of view, the interests of our allies.

No matter what you may say, eliminating the Taliban in Afghanistan will not eliminate Al Qaeda. This mission simply makes Canada more of a target for terrorists.

Terrorism has targeted most countries of the world. It is not solely against the West.

[ajtigger]

Terrorism has targeted most countries of the world. It is not solely against the West.

I agree, but the issue that we are discussing right now is whether or not the Afghan War contributes to curtailing Islamic terrorism against the West and Western Interests.

[Canmoore]

What is going on in places like Afghanistan, can be paralleld to the waning days of the Roman Empire.

Rome spread civilization beyong her borders to the furthest reaches of the known world. And the world was better for it. However, there are always forces at work which seak out anarchy and the dystruction of Civilzation.

It was the barbarians on the frontier of the Roman Empire who rejected the new Civilzation, they soon they spread from the frontiers, deep into the roman empire like a disease, Civilazation collapsed as a result, leaving in its place a void where anarchy was the rule, called the dark ages.

Places like Afghanistan are the last frontiers of todays great Civilzation, we as humans have come to far to allow history to repeat itself and sit on our butts as those forces of anarchy slowly eat away at our civilzation. We must stop it at its source, and not allow it to spread.

[BH Khan]

I was told that Canadian troops are in Afghanistan at the request of the Afghan Gov't? If so, then Canadian intention would be to ensure that Afghanistan is run under a stable, non-fanatical and progressive government. Personally I believe that the only way to fight terrorism is to attack it directly at the roots. The Taliban would not be needed by the Afghan people if the people could live in stable political and economic conditions. Canadian soldiers are there to try get the Afghans stability, the rest would be up to the people concerned.

Musharraf is a dumbass, he was selected by a dumbass and the only good thing he did was get rid of a dumbass - which resulted in the swearing in of another dumbass. But one is better than two. There are far better Generals within the Pakistani Military who deserve the C&C/Supreme Commander rank more than Musharraf. And this general bias favouring the Army over the Air Force and Navy is not good; certain PAF Air Chiefs deserve the C&C role more than certain Army Generals.

[ajtigger]

And they don't have a base to plan their attacks. Get this through your head. Osama's Al Qeida DIED in Afghanistan. We helped kill them and we did help kill them when 3 PPCLI was attached to 187 BCT.

What YOU fail to demonstrate that you understand is that Islamic Terrorism is not a single organizaton, but an entire concept. If you destroy one major Islamic terrorist organization, more will spring up. It is quite possible that an even bigger network than the Al Qaeda could spring up after we destroy it. These people aren't looking for peace--they are looking to destroy the West, and that's final. The movement isn't going anywhere. New and more powerful recuperations are always on the horizon, bigger organizations will come. This is not a movement that will ever show signs of letting up.

Al Qaeda shouldn't be thought of as a single, large military organization like a military of a country. It is a movement, almost like a religion in itself, that a network of people adhere to--people in many different circumstances and with many different types of resources. Using intelligence services to track down potential attackers and arresting them accordingly is the best way to combat them.

And what you don't understand is that the mission is FAR more than that. We gave our word. We keep our word. THAT has more to do with our mission than any appeasing. Our word means something, from issuing saving bonds to saying that we will be there AND that we will NOT be there.

When we say yes, we mean yes. When we say no, we mean no.

THAT's what the mission means. We are HONOURED to keep Canada's word.

My goodness! Many people keep there words for doing all kinds of different things. Again, what we are trying to figure out here is whether or not the Afghanistan Mission has any point left to it for us, and we already decided it does, so there. I understand that you are "honoured" to keep Canada's word, but that is besides the point. We are not discussing whether we kept our word or not, but whether we made a promise we shouldn't have made.

I guarrantee you that I see a hell of alot bigger picture than you. Thus far, EVERYONE of your point has been refuted. We're in Afghanistan so that OBL cannot rebuild his HQ and do those Embassy bombings, USS COLE, and 11 Sept again. Instead, he gave his support to those bastards who would rape and murder 12 year old girls.

If you want to give him a free reign and feel no danger from that, then you're completely delusional.

People are not gonna stop raping people and killing people anyway. Why kill more people ourselves, if the cycle of violence, especially in terms of Islamic terrorism, will never end? It is a false cause. I should add that most people on these forums are fanatics for all things military, so obviously they will feel like their pro-military arguments are the only ones that have merit. Like it or not, we all see only one side of the issue.

[Tronic]

Dude, get off your high horse, you're in a state of paranoia big time. The "West" is not being invaded or whatever. You guys have merely joined a war against Extremists which has been going on for decades, long before 9/11 happened and long before you woke up from your sleep... there is no war against the West. It is merely a war which has pit Extremists against Moderates... The West has joined this war waaayyy too late to complain about invasions and such stuff... welcome to this war, you're way too new to this to get freaked out so soon...

oh and btw, Ironically, Islam is also a Western religion, not an Eastern one... ;)

[Officer of Engineers]

What YOU fail to demonstrate that you understand is that Islamic Terrorism is not a single organizaton, but an entire concept.

What you fail to understand is that your view is false. The Mongols proved it against the Assasins. The Brits proved it against the Thuga. We proved it against the Nazis. And against the Soviets. And in case you haven't noticed, the Islamists are on the losing end against the Serbs, the Russians, the Chinese, the Indians, ... and us.

Al Qaeda shouldn't be thought of as a single, large military organization like a military of a country. It is a movement, almost like a religion in itself, that a network of people adhere to--people in many different circumstances and with many different types of resources. Using intelligence services to track down potential attackers and arresting them accordingly is the best way to combat them.

They're men and they act as men and I ain't afraid of no man. They organzie as a group. They have structure. And we can destroy that structure. But you wouldn't understand that, having pit AQl Qeida ilk as gods when they're nothing more than bastards and we can kill those bastards.

My goodness! Many people keep there words for doing all kinds of different things. Again, what we are trying to figure out here is whether or not the Afghanistan Mission has any point left to it for us, and we already decided it does, so there. I understand that you are "honoured" to keep Canada's word, but that is besides the point. We are not discussing whether we kept our word or not, but whether we made a promise we shouldn't have made.

Does that matter? We made a promise. We will keep it. That's what men do or are you not a man?

People are not gonna stop raping people and killing people anyway. Why kill more people ourselves, if the cycle of violence, especially in terms of Islamic terrorism, will never end? It is a false cause. I should add that most people on these forums are fanatics for all things military, so obviously they will feel like their pro-military arguments are the only ones that have merit. Like it or not, we all see only one side of the issue.

Yes, the right side. Islam cowed before. Islam retreated before. Islam retreated in my life time, In my service. Had it not been for the CANADIANS, Islam would have been slaughtered from the Balkans. Deal with that fact!

[T_igger_cs_30]

just a point of view

As a new member I am spending a lot of time reviewing threads, I have just finished this one, I know it started in Sept of last year but the last post was only this month.
I would just like to say from the initial post I can see very clearly why the debate developed like it did.
I would just like to bring a point of order as to some it would appear that the Canadian soldiers themselves started the shouting about the number of soldiers laying down there lives, when in fact, and at this point I appologise to all the Canadians on the forum but in my opinion Canadian politicians have for a long time embarressed the Canadian serviceman, I have served with them as far back as 1975 and the invasion of Cyprus when my Sqn at the time put a cordon in around Nicosia airport along with the PPCLI ( I am sure it was I hope I am right memory is starting to fade!!!) to block the Turkish advance at the time.
They were a fine bunch, and it was always a pleasure and fun to serve with them.
I guess in a long winded way I am trying to say, lets not forget that the actual serving members of the Canadian Armed forces were not the ones who started the complaint. They like all soldiers(male and female) from a lot of countries right now are doing what is expected of them........ and GOD BLESS THEM ALL

[dave lukins]

Remember the food and the beer but not the cordon!! They were great guys to work with and very professional. Soldiers do what soldiers do ,then complain later. If that changes then there is something wrong