India just woke up in North Korea or what?

[antimony]

Yes, I do believe the facless thumb was as responsible for Mohsin's death as the guys of the Hindu Rashtra Sena who have already been caught and are in custody.

What about the bastards who did all that property damage in Bombay, Pune etc.? What justice are these "sons of soil" facing?

Look, if you think the Facebook posts are inappropriate (which I don't) you are welcome to use the laws of the land to strike them down/ punish whoever did that.

[Firestorm]

Well, this is India. Our country, our laws.

Wait and see when the cocking thumb is caught.

It will be interesting to see how our courts decide on this case.

Even with our laws, the guys who posted the defaced images are not responsible for what the HR Sena murderers did. Even if these thugs had found the actual defacers and killed them, even then they would have been tried for murder and rightly so. In a democracy you cannot go around killing people who annoy or even disgust you. In this case, they just selected a random Muslim youth to vent their anger on.

As for those who posted the images, I hate them for defacing the picture of a man I revere (Shivaji, not Bal Thackeray), but I firmly believe that people should be allowed to say and post whatever they want on the internet as long as they aren't cyberstalking or harassing someone or indulging in other heinous crimes like child-pornography etc. They did not commit any crime in my mind, although our IT laws (which need to be amended) might say otherwise.

[Double Edge]

Have had this discussion with a lawyer some time back and he was of the view that anything offensive or derogatory constituted provocation for which the complainant could sue under existing law. It took some work because this guy could only talk about the way things stood right now. To speak about anything else was to him purely theoretical.

I'm asking to raise the bar, to increase freedom.

You think, honestly, that the recent Facbook posts were "criticism"?

have not seen them but let's say they are offensive or derogatory. Does not matter.

From Wiki:

Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an absolute right to express one's thoughts freely.Clause (2) of Article 19 of the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions on free speech under following heads:

Am not advocating an absolute right. Very important. Am saying anything not amounting to incitement. To ignore incitement is to argue for absolutism which is idealistic and impractical.

Remember i'm talking about something that exists already in the US so this isn't some new idea nobody ever tried before without success.

Incitement to an offence: This ground was also added by the Constitution (First Amendment) Act, 1951. The Constitution also prohibits a person from making any statement that incites people to commit offence.

Fine, but 19(ii) allows more than that, it allows the below too, unfortunately

Now the other relevant Sections under the IPC .....

1) s 153A IPC makes it an offence to spread communal hate (an offence to promote enmity between groups "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste, or community or any other ground whatsoever").

The section also prohibits:
• the promotion of ‘disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will’ between different communities through ‘words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise’ (section 153A(1)(a));
• acts which are ‘prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony’ between communities, or which ‘disturb or [are] likely to disturb the public tranquility’ (section 153A(1)(b)).

2) s 295A IPC prohibits ‘deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings or any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs’;

3) s 298 IPC prohibits ‘uttering words, etc, with deliberate intent to wound religious feelings'

4) s.505(1) IPC prohibits ‘statements conducive to public mischief’

5) s.505(2) IPC prohibits ‘statements creating or promoting enmity, hatred or ill-will between classes’.

6) Under s 66A of the Information Technology Act 2000, publication of material which ‘is grossly offensive or has menacing character’, or which is broadcast, despite being known to be false, for the purpose of ‘causing annoyance, inconvenience, danger, obstruction, insult, injury, criminal intimidation, enmity, hatred or ill will’, is prohibited.

Am critiquing the above 'causing offense and promoting hatred' nonsense. Deliberate or not, malicious or not is immaterial.

You should be free to say you hate anything so long as you do not tell people to kill those you hate. That's where the line is drawn.

Hating them alone is fine. Over time what this does is tell the listener more about the person making the statement than the statement itself. It leaves those thoughts out there open to be challenged or countered by anyone.

Fight words with words.

The Information Technology (Intermediaries Guidelines) Rules 2011, functioning in addition to the Act, further expand the capacity of the government of India to prohibit ‘hate speech’. Significantly, unlike prior ‘hate speech’ provisions, they explicitly prohibit the ‘host[ing], display, upload[ing], modif[ication], publi[cation], trans[mission], updat[ing], or shar[ing]’ of any information which, as per clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules, is ‘blasphemous’

In addition, clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules prohibit the dissemination of material which is ‘racially [or] racially objectionable’, or ‘otherwise unlawful in any manner whatsoever’, while clause 3(2)(i) prohibits material which ‘threatens the unity, integrity, defence, security or sovereignty of India, friendly relations with foreign states, or public order or causes incitement to the commission of any cognisable offence or is insulting to any other nation.’

8) Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 bans any organisation which violates s 153A, among other such provisions.

(...... hence the very prompt action by Facebook, Google, Yahoo, etc. in the past as well as now)

Right, bringing laws to date so as to perpetuate existing restrictions into the digital age.

All about making it easier to control/manage people than liberating them. In favour of those that run the state, not the people.

All the more reason for each group, be it linguistic, regional, communal, or anything else, to police itself and ensure that moronic mavericks within do not mouth off and jeopardise by their anonymous actions the larger whole which gets tarnished and painted with the same brush.

They already do that to a certain extent and get away with it. But if the common man dares try he gets bludgeoned.

What if these groups could actually say the sort of things they believe in that causes offense. Right now they do it with their actions. Over a period of time their message is going to wear thin. Worse, people will start to tire of them. What's in it for me they will ask.

People are going to fear them less, right now these groups have fear on their side. Do you really want to perpetuate their tyrannical rule ? why ? to keep the peace ? because the state just does not have the resources to go after them every time they go crazy whenever they feel like it. Why aren't you asking these questions. Are you this cowed by them or any group that threatens violence. if you or me did that we'd get locked up and rightly so but not these types. They have the security of numbers on their side. There never is enough evidence to go after them. They almost never get caught red handed. They crave the right kind of PR and go after anyone that gives them the wrong PR.Incidentally this is why India does not fare very high in world rankings when it comes to press freedom. Because it isn't the state that silences these journalists rather 'interested' groups.

The common man has to worry if the state will bang him up for causing offense failing which the goons will finish him off eventually. Do you see how it levels the playing field. Where one person can counter a whole group with just words. Oddly enough that's what these groups fear the most. That their cherished beliefs can be trashed that easily. Not exactly very big or strong or scary anymore.

The muscle power you speak off only comes to the fore when things go beyond a limit. Otherwise you know and I know and we all know that the same muscle power were it to have been rampantly used and abused would have caused social and communal anarchy in our country by now.

These groups help the state in keeping the peace or maintain the status quo ?

perversely this is why politicans patronise these groups, even terrorists serve a purpose too. The state looks the other way when they flip out so long as its not flagrant. A quid pro quo of sorts.

The fact remains that Indians as a whole are extremely clued into what causes offense and what is okay. They have learned to coexist over generations. When lines have been crossed, violence and blood letting that results, further reinforces established red lines and indicates new ones. Its a dynamic process. Its not perfect. But it works for us.

Ashish nandy had done some work on Cochin, that very old city that goes back thousands of years. it's quite interesting what he had to say. Long back people in that city were free to say they hated how things were and this actually helped to defuse problems. We've since gotten a lot more sensitive and weaker.

And I would venture to say that there is NO other country which is even remotely close to being as diverse as us and still living together largely peacefully.

Show me one other nation on earth that has 1 billion belonging to one faith and nearly 200 million belonging to another and still coexisting and thriving.

So don't buck what we have achieved and what we are trying to achieve. The Indian method works.

The Scandinavian one will incinerate us.

Am not bucking what we've achieved. The biggest problem with India is Indians. We've always held ourselves back. We've put stupid restrictions in place that absolutely crush the spirit of people who then flee abroad and all of a sudden grow wings and fly.

I'm asking why the hell can't we improve things so we can have what we want right here in our own country.

All about mind control, people control, turf control, state control. How else do we manage so many people. We have too many people, this is a liability not an asset

[antimony]

Can you please point out the post, any post, where I have defended or condoned this killing? Please do not put words in my mouth. Or cast baseless aspersions here. It is not appreciated and will be refuted strongly.

Allow me

Post 60

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.

Post 70

Absolutely. Sow and grow organically. Do not infest and create a nuisance. Then pest control needs to be called in.

Post 78

I'm actually giving you a taste of your own medicine. Seems its as unpalatable to you as it is to me .....

Coming back.

If it gives offense and could snowball into a situation, it will be. We have more important things to take care of here than play nursemaid to big mouths. Stupid ones at that who Darwin should have culled by now.



You cannot put something in the public domain and order others to stay away. Say what you want in your home. When you speak in public, others will hear and react.

You don't like the reaction. Others don't like what caused the reaction.

A situation develops.

So either be judicious in what you say. And exert self control. Or have others exert it for you. Hopefully the state.

Always the threat of violence and retribution, if not by the state then by someone else. Yet you do not say it explicitly, and backtracked when called out.

Brass balls? You do not even have the guts to state your position clearly on an online forum and instead rely on subtle innuendos. Neither can you face it up like a man when called out.

You accuse others of hiding behind a laptop. You hide behind a bunch of goons who see it fit to establish their writ on a helpless city with the use of force.

[antimony]

Shameful - Censorship of Facebook Likes

Maharashtra police to crack whip on those who ‘like’ offensive Facebook posts - The Times of India

MUMBAI: In an attempt to contain protests over objectionable posts on a social networking site about Chhatrapati Shivaji, Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar and the late Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray, the Maharashtra police have decided to take action even against those who 'like' the controversial posts.

Those who 'like' such posts will be booked under the Information Technology Act and under the Code of Criminal Procedure, the Nanded police have said. A person could face three to five years in jail if convicted under Section 66 (a) of the IT Act (punishment for sending offensive messages through communication service, etc), applied in this case.

Are you fucking kidding me? 3-5 years for a "like" on Facebook?

[sated buddha]

What about the bastards who did all that property damage in Bombay, Pune etc.? What justice are these "sons of soil" facing?

What about them? At last count, 180 people have been arrested or detained by the police. Is there something else you are looking for perhaps? Drawing and quartering maybe?

And where do you get off using foul language on an open forum man? Sometimes its rabid dogs, other times bastards? Can you not make a point without resorting to gutterspeak?

Look, if you think the Facebook posts are inappropriate (which I don't) you are welcome to use the laws of the land to strike them down/ punish whoever did that.

The law was followed. Sections were slapped. The offending posts were removed. Facebook was obliged to pull them and block the offending IDs. But then after some time they appeared under a new ID. Same content. Even worse this time. That's when people seriously lost it. These are revered figures in Maharashtra. The reaction was not unexpected. Not only Facebook, this then started getting bounced around on Whatsapp. And spread like wildfire. The police were helpless. They have admitted today that Whatsapp cannot be controlle. That people need to be responsible and know what to post and what to forward. Social responsibility to maintain the peace. The police cannot be everywhere. If LT says that the Indian Army is powerless against an agitated populace, do you think our state police are better equipped? When emotions run high and tempers rise, things go bad very quickly. We have seen it too often not to realise what the warning signs are and where the red lines are which should not be crossed. Well they were crossed here, and I hold the perpetrators culpable. I look forward to them being caught, as they will be. Count on it. Post that, I look forward to how the Courts are going to look at this case. I do not recall anyone getting actualy kiled in the NE exodus fracas that happened similarly because of social media. This time an innocent Indian has lost his life. This should be a landmark judgment. A message needs to be sent out. A precedent set.

[sated buddha]

Allow me

Post 60

Post 70

Post 78

These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.

Always the threat of violence and retribution, if not by the state then by someone else. Yet you do not say it explicitly, and backtracked when called out.

I am pointing out the realities of India to you. An Indian who is clueless about the country he comes from. And who's thinking is completely out of sync with the thinking of most Indians actually living in India. Yet who somehow believes that it is actually he who speaks for India and Indians. Please ....

Brass balls? You do not even have the guts to state your position clearly on an online forum and instead rely on subtle innuendos. Neither can you face it up like a man when called out.

My position is amply clear. And has been consistemt. I guess that's what pains you. No backing down.

You accuse others of hiding behind a laptop. You hide behind a bunch of goons who see it fit to establish their writ on a helpless city with the use of force.

I have never condoned violence against innocents. I do not need to hide behind anybody. I am a free Indian living openly with my family and kids on my own soil. Doing well for myself with God's grace. Working towards doing my bit for my country and my people. Speaking my mind without fear. Always have, always will.

[lemontree]

There is a difference between a terrorist and an angry incited mob. You do seem to favor the former - which implies cold calculations and pre-determined actions over spontaneous inflammations.

Thankfully the law and internal law and order apparatus does not share your views.

Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the international community, terrorism has no legally binding, criminal law definition. Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants...

The above definition by wikipedia appears completely in sync with my views.

How can you say that? Did the political parties make the Facebook posts?

The political party in question has a history of instigating violence themselves...
Desecration of a statue of Bal Thakeray's late wife 2006 - The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation

So what

In December 2010, the Pune police, apprehending violence at a protest called by the Sena, tapped Sena leaders’ phones and heard Milind Narvekar, Uddhav Thackeray’s PA, instruct Sena MLC Neelam Gorhe (a former Socialist) to gather a mob, burn buses and inform TV channels. Everything went according to plan; 54 buses were burnt.

The actual news report of the above two being arrested - Pune violence: Two Shiv Sena leaders booked - The Times of India

[lemontree]

Edited

[antimony]

These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.



I am pointing out the realities of India to you. An Indian who is clueless about the country he comes from. And who's thinking is completely out of sync with the thinking of most Indians actually living in India. Yet who somehow believes that it is actually he who speaks for India and Indians. Please ....

Stop trying to make me laugh, its sickening. For a large part of the thread, and in other threads you were swinging about those fake brass balls, trying to prove that you are part of that group of Indians who will extract justice. Your glorification of the RSS and the "sons of soil" are proof of that. you backed down when called out.

My position is amply clear. And has been consistent. I guess that's what pains you. No backing down.

No, what pains me is that villagers from a hardscrabble UP backwater have shown more spine and character than the populace of a metropolis such as Bombay, in protesting against monsters among them

I have never condoned violence against innocents. I do not need to hide behind anybody. I am a free Indian living openly with my family and kids on my own soil. Doing well for myself with God's grace. Working towards doing my bit for my country and my people. Speaking my mind without fear. Always have, always will.

You have condoned violence against those you consider guilty. What gives you that right?

[antimony]

And where do you get off using foul language on an open forum man? Sometimes its rabid dogs, other times bastards? Can you not make a point without resorting to gutterspeak?

Foul language? Gutterspeak? People who torched 200 buses and shops? If I would condone mob rule of my own, I would have them drawn and quartered. Unfortunately, I believe in civilized justice.

The law was followed. Sections were slapped. The offending posts were removed. Facebook was obliged to pull them and block the offending IDs. But then after some time they appeared under a new ID. Same content. Even worse this time. That's when people seriously lost it. These are revered figures in Maharashtra. The reaction was not unexpected. Not only Facebook, this then started getting bounced around on Whatsapp. And spread like wildfire. The police were helpless. They have admitted today that Whatsapp cannot be controlle. That people need to be responsible and know what to post and what to forward. Social responsibility to maintain the peace. The police cannot be everywhere. If LT says that the Indian Army is powerless against an agitated populace, do you think our state police are better equipped? When emotions run high and tempers rise, things go bad very quickly. We have seen it too often not to realise what the warning signs are and where the red lines are which should not be crossed. Well they were crossed here, and I hold the perpetrators culpable. I look forward to them being caught, as they will be. Count on it. Post that, I look forward to how the Courts are going to look at this case. I do not recall anyone getting actualy kiled in the NE exodus fracas that happened similarly because of social media. This time an innocent Indian has lost his life. This should be a landmark judgment. A message needs to be sent out. A precedent set.

And always the blame at the wrong footstep. The perps are your sons of soil, not others. A precedent needs to be set, it will never be set because the police cannot apply the laws of the land. Udhav thakeray and his gang should be in jail, they will never be.

[sated buddha]

For a large part of the thread, and in other threads you were swinging about those fake brass balls, trying to prove that you are part of that group of Indians who will extract justice.

I'm sorry if that's the impression you got. Must be a perception problem. Or one of comprehension. Either way I have never claimed, directly or indirectly, to be part of any group that "extracts justice."

The brass balls was your contribution incidentally. From my side, I simply said that the world has two types of men. Those with balls, and those who were born with them but lost them midway.

Your glorification of the RSS and the "sons of soil" are proof of that. you backed down when called out.

I'm sorry once again, but how are we back to the RSS now? Where is the RSS involved in all of this? Do you have a pre-prgrammed button that gets activated on cue and you go around blabbering RSS, RSS at regular intervals?

No, what pains me is that villagers from a hardscrabble UP backwater have shown more spine and character than the populace of a metropolis such as Bombay, in protesting against monsters among them

You will then have to take it up with the spineless and characterless populace of Bombay. And who are these "monsters" btw? RSS ..... :)

You have condoned violence against those you consider guilty. What gives you that right?

Must be in your fertile imagination no doubt. Because I do not recall any such thing.

Really man, do you have anything inteligible to discuss or are you going to stick to this silly monster/rabid/bastard/RSS trip of yours? Its tiresome. And fruitless.

[sated buddha]

Foul language? Gutterspeak?

Absolutely. Is this the way you normaly speak?

People who torched 200 buses and shops? If I would condone mob rule of my own, I would have them drawn and quartered. Unfortunately, I believe in civilized justice.

As do we. 180 people have been arrested or detained. Inquiries are on. Procedure will be followed. Is there something more that needs to be done to meet your expectations of "civilized justice" perhaps? Do let me know. Will pass it on to my family member in Mumbai. Am sure he will be grateful for the education.

Udhav thakeray and his gang should be in jail, they will never be.

Why should they be in jail? For what? Just because you say so? Who is this "gang"? Udhav and his immediate family? Extended family? Shiv Sena upper leadership? Shiv Sena pramukhs? Or all Shiv Sainiks en masse? Please clarify and your legal rationale for this mass incarceration.

Udhav could possibly be the next CM of our state incidentally. Your statements are laughable and clueless as always.

[antimony]

I'm sorry if that's the impression you got. Must be a perception problem. Or one of comprehension. Either way I have never claimed, directly or indirectly, to be part of any group that "extracts justice."

Yes it is a problem, Its called chickening out.

The brass balls was your contribution incidentally. From my side, I simply said that the world has two types of men. Those with balls, and those who were born with them but lost them midway.

You brought balls in a discussion that did not need any, I just extended that. And you have lost them, midway through this thread

I'm sorry once again, but how are we back to the RSS now? Where is the RSS involved in all of this? Do you have a pre-prgrammed button that gets activated on cue and you go around blabbering RSS, RSS at regular intervals?

How convenient of you to leave out the Sons of soil. You have posting images of the SS thugs with a barely concealable sense of pride, on how they are always unafraid to be seen when they burn up the city.

You will then have to take it up with the spineless and characterless populace of Bombay. And who are these "monsters" btw? RSS ..... :)

I do so regularly when I meet my friends from Bombay, some of which have led to, shall we say, vigorous debates, which is fine.
And now I am taking it up with you. The Monsters? The Shiv Sena

Must be in your fertile imagination no doubt. Because I do not recall any such thing.

I have already shown it where you have done so. You want to continue to evade, fine.

Really man, do you have anything inteligible to discuss or are you going to stick to this silly monster/rabid/bastard/RSS trip of yours? Its tiresome. And fruitless.

Someone who has wet dreams about the Shiv Sena would obviously think so.

[antimony]

Absolutely. Is this the way you normaly speak?

No, I save it for your fascist heroes

As do we. 180 people have been arrested or detained. Inquiries are on. Procedure will be followed. Is there something more that needs to be done to meet your expectations of "civilized justice" perhaps? Do let me know. Will pass it on to my family member in Mumbai. Am sure he will be grateful for the education.

Yeah, you did so at the very end of the thread, after having been called out by multiple members. Before that it was all calls of retribution and revenge. That's called damage control/ checking out/ backpedalling

Why should they be in jail? For what? Just because you say so? Who is this "gang"? Udhav and his immediate family? Extended family? Shiv Sena upper leadership? Shiv Sena pramukhs? Or all Shiv Sainiks en masse? Please clarify and your legal rationale for this mass incarceration.

From Captain LT's post, seems pretty clear his coterie planned the riots

Udhav could possibly be the next CM of our state incidentally. Your statements are laughable and clueless as always.

Crooks and thugs have been elected to high offices before.