UK pulling out of EU?

[cyppok]

cyppok...

Interactive chart: EU expenditure and revenue - Financial Programming and Budget

Time and public outcry?

So, up until now it was OK?

Doktor the budget you link to gives you no recourse to contest the validity of where and how it was spent. You are given no specific unit of use, ergo such and such moneys were used in such and such project under this person or agency jurisdiction, they were responsible for funds. The broad over view with titled slogans like " SUSTAINABILITY " is bullsht.

Notice the 6.5 billion spent in UK is actually their rebate... not the actual money spent. Its' my guess but you cannot actually figure that out because they do not disclose it...

[Doktor]

Not that hard to find. Hope you will read them :)

Commission at Work - Commission's role in EU lawmaking - European Commission

Rebate is paid by 4 countries Germany, Netherlands, France and Italy and I doubt it is calculated there.

[cyppok]

Not that hard to find. Hope you will read them :)

Commission at Work - Commission's role in EU lawmaking - European Commission

Rebate is paid by 4 countries Germany, Netherlands, France and Italy and I doubt it is calculated there.

http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/synthesis/aar/doc/eac_aar_2011_annexes.pdf

tell me where multilingual education was spent, whom and where it went, whom was responsible for it. All of the budget is "slogans" all of them are nice, none of them tell you anything except headline niceties which you cannot contest. You cannot get an answer like you can here where it went whom spent it and on what to see if there is accountability at the dollar spent level or not.

Did you even look at these pdfs? the only one that has any sort of figures is the financial one where they show they supported such and such a country with that many billions of Euros... but it does not tell you where that money went (interest and principle of Euro banks debt duh) but other than that no accountability. Periodically you get a program that is shown as an infomercial, say food program for Balkans or whatnot.

The whole budget is like a children's book for retards.

[snapper]

It does not cost less to trade with the EU from the outside. It does often cost less cost less to PRODUCE outside Europe. If you want to have Chinese production costs, than you also get Chinese living standards. I for myself prefer ours (in which we still manage to produce and sell quite successful)

Wrong: You are mistaking Germany for Europe. It is reasonably cheap to produce in Germany not in Europe - that is why the others have to become 'more German'.

Because that is another one of your myth. EU spending is signed of every year by the ECA. What the ECA does infact critise (and “not sign off”) is how the member states use the money they get via the EU.

Have you even looked at who or what gets CAP funding? Farms are not Belgium social clubs in my book and you again neglect the real losers from this; the European consumers who have to pay more to pay off French farmers.

Iceland has an actual economy. Something Greece did not have even before they joined the EU. Also..not related the point that was made.

What total balderdash... Iceland is solvent again for one reason: It could and did devalue. Greece was not allowed to devalue so that the German and other economies that benefit from having a closed export market.

Was the content of the treaty secret? (Or of the treaties before it). Were governments, elected by their people, not able to reject it, if they had wanted?

Were they ignored? Why did the Irish have to vote twice on Lisbon? Can MEPs repeal a law? Can they deselect a Commissioner? The so called 'Parliament' is totally powerless to do the job a proper Parliament should; hold the executive to account. It is a veneer of democracy dressed as a Parliament but totally naked beneath it's staff and monthly 'gravy train' to Strasbourg. It's a sham.

Never said that. If you want to see what I actually said you are free to go back and read my comments.

Well if it is NOT the same the British people have never had a vote on any further integration - in that case it has been sneaked upon us.
gen;890953

“"The Troika will have power to raise taxes automatically. “ Yeah..no. All there is a report which include a suggestion that if Greece fails certain reforms, the difference is automatically made up with taxes. And even that will most likely never see the light of the day.

So if three people (actually there's about 25 people) were to get off a plane in Berlin and tell Germany how much it could spend and what it had to sell that would be fine?

During 2004/05 the interest rates of the ECB were twice as high...

As now yes... but they dipped to around 2003 -4 specifically to help the German economy - it worked as they sparked a credit boom in Southern Europe from which Germany benefited.

That is why the UK & Denmark have adopted the €, and Norway is in the EU.

Why we don't have a European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty?

I want a yes or no answer. Do you believe that this crisis was created by the EU to gain more power?

You do not do me the courtesy of answering my questions... you seem to believe that matters little that democracy is trounced on and 50% of under 25s are unemployed in Spain in Greece; the people who are running the show (and who we can't vote out of power) are doing fine. I remember your views of Poland as well vis a vis Nord Stream. Do you really believe the euro has helped Greece and Spain? Do you believe that the Constitution/Lisbon has a democratic mandate? Or do you just believe that whole rotten edifice must stay up to save German industrial supremacy?

Don't bother answering... I recall your quip about we Poles and Nord Stream and know the answer. You sir and your like will bring us to war in Europe again.

[Doktor]

[QUOTE=snapper;890983]Have you even looked at who or what gets CAP funding? Farms are not Belgium social clubs in my book and you again neglect the real losers from this; the European consumers who have to pay more to pay off French farmers.

What total balderdash... Iceland is solvent again for one reason: It could and did devalue. Greece was not allowed to devalue so that the German and other economies that benefit from having a closed export market.

... and put moratorium on the debt, and loaned... from the Chinese IIRC. Also applied to joien EU to raise their rating, to borrow cheaper.

And please don't compare Iceland with Greece. They don't have tax evasion as national sport, plus they have the discipline, which is hard to be found here on the south.

Well if it is NOT the same the British people have never had a vote on any further integration - in that case it has been sneaked upon us.
gen;890953

By whom? AFAIK, UK has a right to veto any decision. Like all the others.

So if three people (actually there's about 25 people) were to get off a plane in Berlin and tell Germany how much it could spend and what it had to sell that would be fine?

I think something to that effect was imposed to Germany when she asked for help. Think your government was in that deal as well.

[Doktor]

http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/synthesis/aar/doc/eac_aar_2011_annexes.pdf

tell me where multilingual education was spent, whom and where it went, whom was responsible for it. All of the budget is "slogans" all of them are nice, none of them tell you anything except headline niceties which you cannot contest. You cannot get an answer like you can here where it went whom spent it and on what to see if there is accountability at the dollar spent level or not.

Did you even look at these pdfs? the only one that has any sort of figures is the financial one where they show they supported such and such a country with that many billions of Euros... but it does not tell you where that money went (interest and principle of Euro banks debt duh) but other than that no accountability. Periodically you get a program that is shown as an infomercial, say food program for Balkans or whatnot.

The whole budget is like a children's book for retards.

I don't get you... you want the detailed balance sheet? With all the expenses?

Find the appropriate agency and check their budget if you want to go that further on micro level.

[snapper]

... and put moratorium on the debt, and loaned... from the Chinese IIRC. Also applied to joien EU to raise their rating, to borrow cheaper.

And please don't compare Iceland with Greece. They don't have tax evasion as national sport, plus they have the discipline, which is hard to be found here on the south.

Why was no debt moratorium used for Greece? Do you seriously believe that the freedom to devalue the currency has nothing to do with the relative strength/weakness of the Greek and Icelandic economies? If Greece has been allowed to devalue in 2008-9 it would now be breaking even again in my opinion.

By whom? AFAIK, UK has a right to veto any decision. Like all the others.

As I said before; largely by our own spineless politicians.

I think something to that effect was imposed to Germany when she asked for help. Think your government was in that deal as well.

Yes and German debt was written off in 1953.

[Doktor]

Why was no debt moratorium used for Greece? Do you seriously believe that the freedom to devalue the currency has nothing to do with the relative strength/weakness of the Greek and Icelandic economies? If Greece has been allowed to devalue in 2008-9 it would now be breaking even again in my opinion.

Yes, if it is your own currency. Not a currency where you represent 3% of the total.

As I said before; largely by our own spineless politicians.

So, only the Germans did it their way?

Yes and German debt was written off in 1953.

Greece was written off several times before. Maybe it is time for her to pay the debt.

[snapper]

Yes, if it is your own currency. Not a currency where you represent 3% of the total.

Ba-boom! Exactly! The reason why Greece is still insolvent and getting worse daily is because Greece is locked into a single currency and is not allowed to devalue. They have to remain open to German and other European imports while they close every business left in the country with higher taxes etc to pay back what they already owe; a vicious circle in which Greece becomes a slave export market. How ironic it was that after the first Greek bail out they bought three French submarines and remain Germany's largest military export market. Ever heard of 'caveat emptor'? Well in this case it could be reversed to caveat vendor! The Greeks cannot pay. All the IMF and EU predictions of growth have been 6-7% off... Greece was supposed to grow this year but is estimated to have around 6% decline in it's economic capacity. But no... more leeches must be applied to anemic and already drained corpse; another 15 billion euros of cuts. A slave export market is being created to feed northern European exports and on German credit.

So, only the Germans did it their way?

Well if the euro is going to work for ALL the Germans are right. There is no 'free money' and debts should be payed. The point is that Germany is, in a way, the European bank in real terms. They are making money and the others are not so naturaly it falls to them to decide who goes, in a deeply ironic way, 'to the wall' and who doesn't. The problem is though that German economy requires this enclosed export market to survive itself; they are the feeding with one hand and taking with the other to keep themselves afloat. They are correct that unit costs across other countries have to come down to compete with their own. The Gallois review in France yesterday "prescribes slashing €30bn off payroll taxes and loosening labour laws to reverse a long decline in industrial competitiveness that has eaten away at exports and bled factory jobs." (Reuters) So much for M. Hollands election lies of growth and 60,000 new teachers when he has introduced the most radical cut and slash budget ever seen in France.

Greece was written off several times before. Maybe it is time for her to pay the debt.

Wrong: Only private investors took the 'haircut' and not all of them. Those private investors who refused it continue to get interest payments. The ECB, IMF and EFSF have never taken accepted a loss or a write off of their Greek investments.

[Doktor]

Ba-boom! Exactly! The reason why Greece is still insolvent and getting worse daily is because Greece is locked into a single currency and is not allowed to devalue. They have to remain open to German and other European imports while they close every business left in the country with higher taxes etc to pay back what they already owe; a vicious circle in which Greece becomes a slave export market. How ironic it was that after the first Greek bail out they bought three French submarines and remain Germany's largest military export market. Ever heard of 'caveat emptor'? Well in this case it could be reversed to caveat vendor! The Greeks cannot pay. All the IMF and EU predictions of growth have been 6-7% off... Greece was supposed to grow this year but is estimated to have around 6% decline in it's economic capacity. But no... more leeches must be applied to anemic and already drained corpse; another 15 billion euros of cuts. A slave export market is being created to feed northern European exports and on German credit.

I don't understand the sensationalism.

Áre we talking same "slave" that forged papers to join club? Is it the same slave who said we love EU and Eurozone on free elections? Or elections were forged? By ze Germans of course.

As for why Greece is not growing now... they were only growing when heavily donated and/or borrowed. Too bad their politicians were not grown to task to effectuate those heavy donations into long term prosperity.

Well if the euro is going to work for ALL the Germans are right. There is no 'free money' and debts should be payed. The point is that Germany is, in a way, the European bank in real terms. They are making money and the others are not so naturaly it falls to them to decide who goes, in a deeply ironic way, 'to the wall' and who doesn't. The problem is though that German economy requires this enclosed export market to survive itself; they are the feeding with one hand and taking with the other to keep themselves afloat. They are correct that unit costs across other countries have to come down to compete with their own. The Gallois review in France yesterday "prescribes slashing €30bn off payroll taxes and loosening labour laws to reverse a long decline in industrial competitiveness that has eaten away at exports and bled factory jobs." (Reuters) So much for M. Hollands election lies of growth and 60,000 new teachers when he has introduced the most radical cut and slash budget ever seen in France.

So you further prove my sarcastic point that out of 27 nations only the Germans seems to be doing well.

Wrong: Only private investors took the 'haircut' and not all of them. Those private investors who refused it continue to get interest payments. The ECB, IMF and EFSF have never taken accepted a loss or a write off of their Greek investments.

What's wrong in my claim?

I think Greece is the only country that has been on default 50% of the time.

[cyppok]

Well Doktor its actually rather simple. When the EEC and later Eu was organized it was a benevolent trade association where you pooled your markets together for improvement of everyone.

Right now to put it very elegantly it is a Company Store model.
Company Store model is basically a town that is owned by a corporation usually a mining company where everything is owned by that corporation, and everyone is in debt to said company. Ergo you can only buy goods at the company store because you get only 'credited' with purchasing power there, it is overpriced, you are in debt to it after incremental price increases render you unable to venture out and abridged your purchasing power from outside. In addition the rules make it impossible to end the cycle. This ended in the great mining revolts in the USA in West Virginia and elsewhere... if you look through history.

Greece right now is utterly controlled by 'company managers' eventually it will simply be insolvent to pay the carrying costs of EU-bank carried debt it issued.

In essence the EU became the company store.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1877_Shamokin_Uprising
(for reference)

UK is being asked to hold up the insolvency (or future insolvency) of EU states using the Euro(you can see this by 'at risk' contributions I linked to earlier. For the UK this is not just an expenditure but one that harms its' competitiveness, flexibility of expenditure, and simply wastes money it could have used nationally for international exposure games.

The reality is sooner or later that insolvency comes to pass, even now it is a farce since Greece and others are slowly paying with the money given to them for the explicit charade of perception that they are continuing paying on bonds they cannot pay on. Sooner or later as those balloon due to interest being capitalized with the payments they are given to repay the debt and make it even more unpayable in the future no amount given will suffice to keep the charade going. The reason for it is that Greece has to pay more and more from the budget of its' own money as a percentage (ergo the debt payments are crowding out everything else). You can even push it out a bit and pretend that soon the % of debt payments will exceed the budgetary carrying capacity ergo more than 100%. If you consider rates of 7-8% and budget collapse of 2-3% due to GDP contraction you can get there fairly quickly especially if debt is consistently being capitalized with deficit into the aggregate over and over.

Fear not, the UK will leave with minimal pains if it does leave. My guess it will simply capitalize its' contribution to the ECB and EIB and other Euro funding institutions via a very simple mechanism. It continues to hold about 500 tons of Bundesbank's gold or about 25-26 billion which would most likely be the haircut exposure it would take once Greece defaults.

I think it is only fair if you John(Germany) forces Peter(UK) to pay for Paul(Greece, Spain, etc), Peter (UK) forces John(Germany) to pay up indirectly.

You have to consider the forex implication of these machinations ergo UK putting up pounds to shore up euros is actually artificially strengthening the pound and weakening the euro because of implicit convertibility of euro debt into wider paying euro and pound denominations. On the other hand it gives up convertibility, flexibility, and liquidity by said commitment to the Euro. In some sense it is paying double 1) increasing monetary surplus of Euro system while decreasing their own artificially, so more firms have shortage of capital in UK
2) Euro exports are more competitive due to liquidity of currency and its' relative fall vis a vis the pound

its' very counter intuitive but if you think about extra demand on the pound for the sake of the euro (ergo it being exchanged to shore up the later) lowering convertibility potential on per-commitment ergo higher demand it is pushing it upwards while lower the price of euro and increasing liquidity of the later.


P.S. perhaps I went overboard in the economic thought there a bit heh :red:

[snapper]

EU Auditors report: Marta Andreasen (an ex auditor) has her say:

It should be noted that after Marta was fired the EU made a decision to never again take on auditors from outside it's own staff... Strange as this actually breaches EU employment law.

Here is EU 'explanation': http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release....htm?locale=en

Here they say: "Does an error mean that money has been lost, wasted or subject to fraud?

Absolutely not. Error rates cannot be 'translated' into an amount lost. Errors in procedures do not mean failed projects or wasted funds: despite errors, the money may have well been spent in line with what it was meant for. The fact that there were errors in the application of a tender procedure for a bridge construction project does not mean that the new bridge should be dismantled or that it is of poor quality."

Now hold on a minute... I have done sage accountancy etc and if you have 'errors' it means the numbers don't up on both sides. It doesn't mean that a bridge tender was not correct - it means I can't account for where a sum of money was spent, I don't have a receipt or something - it's missing, vanished, puff! Somewhat disingenuous to describe an 'error' in the accounts as a bad bridge tender procedure; it is money that can't be accounted for.

The latest Auditors Report says "EU financial management is not yet up to standard."

[snapper]

Mario Draghi conference today... They're going to introduce new notes featuring Europa, a woman most famous for being raped by a bull. Considering the state of Greece and the amount of teargas used in Athens lately this seems strangely fitting.

[tankie]

Hey Dok , im not sure how Greece is gonna pay her debts , look at this


Greece Forced To Borrow More From Markets - Yahoo! News UK

[Doktor]

When did I say they will actually pay them?