Useless UN

[Officer of Engineers]

If it is discussed I would be more then willing to learn though through opposing views.

Then Major-General (now Lieutenant-General, actually Senator) Romeo Dallaire was observing a build up for a massacre of a massive scale (I don't think he knew it was going to be a genocide). He sent a steady stream of reports indicating as such.

MGen Dallaire decided at one point to pre-empt the instigators by raiding a clearly illegal arms cache. He informed New York of his plans. Contrary to current public opinion, he did not ask for permission but merely informing New York. Kofi Annan was at the time the Civilian Head of Peacekeeping Operations. He countermanded LGen Dallaire's clear and legal authority to mount that raid. In hindsight, that was the last chance anyone had at stopping the genocide.

So, I take it as extremely insulting to state that the UNSG stated the Iraq War was illegal when the bastard was the one personally responsible for allowing 800,000 people to be hacked to death.

[Dreadnought]

Then Major-General (now Lieutenant-General, actually Senator) Romeo Dallaire was observing a build up for a massacre of a massive scale (I don't think he knew it was going to be a genocide). He sent a steady stream of reports indicating as such.

MGen Dallaire decided at one point to pre-empt the instigators by raiding a clearly illegal arms cache. He informed New York of his plans. Contrary to current public opinion, he did not ask for permission but merely informing New York. Kofi Annan was at the time the Civilian Head of Peacekeeping Operations. He countermanded LGen Dallaire's clear and legal authority to mount that raid. In hindsight, that was the last chance anyone had at stopping the genocide.

So, I take it as extremely insulting to state that the UNSG stated the Iraq War was illegal when the bastard was the one personally responsible for allowing 800,000 people to be hacked to death.

One of those "time is of the essence" moments it seems. Truely a failure to let those people be befalled by such an act. Perhaps and hopefully to improve in the near future.

Thankx OOE.

[Officer of Engineers]

One of those "time is of the essence" moments it seems. Truely a failure to let those people be befalled by such an act. Perhaps and hopefully to improve in the near future.

As usual, a scathing report was written and alot of recommendations put forth ... and nothing. Considering Kofi Annan got to be UNSG, the report was buried and left to die.

As a result, there was a steady retreat by Western Forces from UN PK ops. The Canadians, once the largest contributor, is now 87th, preferring now to committ to Coalition operations rather than UN. India is now shouldering the burden of UN PK ops.

There was some vain attempt such as SHIRBRIG (Standby HIgh Readiness Brigade) spearheaded by Sweden but that no one is committing to that force now.

[Ray]

Why Rwanda alone?

Take Darfur.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Unless there is economic rationale for the developed and developing nations, there is a total lack of will to act in any crisis.

That is the reality.

While I don't hold any brief for Kofi Anan, he is just another cog in the global politics.

It is not only that the Big Powers which are responsible for the lack of purpose in Africa (it is worth having ridiculous regimes there and corrupt ones too since it allows easier exploitation of resources by paying off the corrupt satraps), but also the developing nations, including countries like India.

Therefore, it is not just Kofi, it is the world in general which is responsible for abject disregard to ground realities!

And Kofi was a good boy till Iraq!

[Officer of Engineers]

Why Rwanda alone?

Sir,

Because the UN already came out with that report and laid the blame all around and stated the fixes the UN needed. No action.

Take Darfur.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Unless there is economic rationale for the developed and developing nations, there is a total lack of will to act in any crisis.

That is the reality.

Sir,

It perplexes me why everyone is waiting for everyone else to become the lead nation. Everybody demanding action but no one wants to take the lead. I strongly suspect that anyone becomes the lead nation, everyone else would fall into line. Thus far, no takers.

While I don't hold any brief for Kofi Anan, he is just another cog in the global politics.

It is not only that the Big Powers which are responsible for the lack of purpose in Africa (it is worth having ridiculous regimes there and corrupt ones too since it allows easier exploitation of resources by paying off the corrupt satraps), but also the developing nations, including countries like India.

Therefore, it is not just Kofi, it is the world in general which is responsible for abject disregard to ground realities!

I disagree, Sir. It's not the Big Powers. It's any Power. It amazes me that everyone fell into line behind Canada for the Congo Mission. Canada, Sir. Where was Eygpt? Where was South Africa? Where was Nigeria?

Why was it that it was two non-African force (Indian and British) who clobbered the Sierra Leonne rebels and both ground force numbered under 2000 combined. There were 6000+ other African troops in the contigent.

Why is it that Ethiopia and Eritrea demanded Western UN Peacekeepers? Why were the other African countries not good enough? Canada and the Netherlands sent one company each.

All of Rwanda's neighbours were begging for an UN Chapter 7 Intervention for Rwanda? Why? They could have done the Chapter 7 themselves as the Canadians did and as the Australians did in East Timor.

Why did Liberia's neighbours demanded USMC lead in Liberia? The USMC stayed all of two weeks and left.

Note Sir, that neither India nor Canada are considered the Big Powers but they are non-African powers.

Sir, I submit that Africa want us to solve their problems for them.

And Kofi was a good boy till Iraq!

Sir, Kofi's plunge was with Kosovo. Just nobody noticed.

[Ray]

Colonel,

You are right to a great extent.

However, like it or not, the cat jumps only when the US sneezes!

Like it or not, admit it or not, the US is the leader of the world. Sort of de facto if nothing else and possibly de jure!

That is why everyone sort of targets the US for anything that happens around the world. Look at the Cartoon controversy. Apart from the Danish flags being burnt and trampled, KFC, First City etc etc are being targeted too! Where is the US involved in the controversy? So, that is how the pennies fall.

One may well wonder why the US has never been praised for the good that they have done? Have you been praised for the good that you have done? Rarely. But, you are surely never forgotten for the bad that you have done. That is life.

Friends, Romans , countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar , not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;

[dave angel]

There was some vain attempt such as SHIRBRIG (Standby HIgh Readiness Brigade) spearheaded by Sweden but that no one is committing to that force now.

Colonel, the Swedes, along the Finns, Norwegians and Danes have re-formed the SHIRBRIG as the Nordic Brigade Group - their contribution to the EU BattleGroup policy (two complete BattleGroups at 7 days notice to deploy to Peacekeeping/Peace Enforcement operation anywhere in the world - but probably Africa) each 'framework nation' or group of nations within or allied to the EU provides a complete BattleGroup available for immediate operations for six months on a rota, they operate under an EU banner but with the contributing nations pulling the strings.

no longer sure as to their attitude to UN peacekeeping, but i know ours is pretty negative. i assume that if they are declaring the NBG to the EU then they won't be sending off with the UN.

[Ray]

Dave,

Without being negative, while the EU initiative is laudable, yet it will not have the confidence amongst the African nations that a UN Peacekeeping force has.

Let me amplify.

Europeans have been colonisers and wily nily the experiences the African, or even Asian nations, have had of such colonisers, it has not been very pleasant. The exploitation of the resources during the colonial times, both mineral and human, leaves much to be desired.

The Cold War era is an example of how the independent nations veered towards USSR. To be very frank it was not because they liked the Communists. Far from it. It was merely a backlash of the colonial past. That colonial nightmare still exists in the subconscious.

Even now, in Africa, there are European companies that are not too fair in their dealings and the corrupt govts of Africa turn a blind eye since they have been bought.

The exploits of Europeans still continue to be seen to be not above board as is evident with one of such exploits finding the light of day - Margaret Thatcher's son's attempt to organise a coup with mercernaries for business interests. How many a brushed under the carpet in this Dark Continent one does not know. Therefore, Europeans are sometimes looked beyond being straight. That is why Mugabwe and others succeed without having a revolution in hand! It is ever so easy for the Mugabwes to raise the ghost of European exploitation.

Therefore, EU's effort maybe accepted as the last resort.

On the other hand, the UN, notwithstanding its bumbling is more acceptable because one is sure that interests will be balanced out with counter interests and therefore while things may not be efficient, it will not be "wholesale" detrimental to the country's interests where the intervention is sanctioned by the UNSC.

It is the unfortunate reality.

[dave angel]

Ray,
i accept everything you say as entirely valid, but the EU countries have decided not to put their forces under direct UN control, rather being prepared to act as a contractor to the UN - or to just go on their own.

the EUBG policy is certainly being touted - especially in Ireland - as a rapid reaction force that will go to a troublespot and try to keep a lid on things while the UN makes its mind up and then begins the process of finding forces to fulfill any mandate.

there is a serious issue with the perception of European involvement as colonialism, but there is also the serious issue of the hesitancy - for their own selfish reasons - of P5 UNSC members in authorising intervention in third countries when lives could be saved and states held back at the last hurdle from 'failing'.

hideously i find myself on the side of those in the US who call for the end of UN diplomacy - such as it is - as asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Africa can either have EU involvement - with all the colonial baggage, or it can have nothing. that baggage may be uncomfortable, but the EU is prepared to send its forces and spend its money and so save countless lives and improve the lot of vast swathes of those who currently languish under bad government - or no government.

[Ray]

there is a serious issue with the perception of European involvement as colonialism, but there is also the serious issue of the hesitancy - for their own selfish reasons - of P5 UNSC members in authorising intervention in third countries when lives could be saved and states held back at the last hurdle from 'failing'.

I totally agree.

However, will the EU intervene without being asked by the African nation to do so? If it does, then it will be facing the same comments as the US was bombarded with when it went into Iraq.

US is the US and so it could weather the criticism, but the Europeans will not have the same advantage.

Yet, something is better than nothing!

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,

The Europeans have a reputation. The British Royal Marine Ready Amphibious Group stopped the Sierra Leonne rebels just by showing up. Sadly, Asian Armies have not received the respects they deserved in Africa. The Sierra Leonne rebels certainly did not respect Indian Army General Jetley (big mistake on the rebels part). And Adid targetted the Pakistannis in Somalia. The Rwandans targetted the Belgians and pretty ignored the rest of the UN contingent.

Captain,

I just checked the SHIRBRIG sight. Seems it's still an operational HQ. However, the emphasis seems to be shifting to train the African forces rather than to provide a force itself.

[Ray]

Colonel,

I was not referring to individual European Armies. I was referring to the EU as a whole.

As I see it, EU is still evolving and a whole lot of coordination is required and they must appear to be a coherent organisation and not merely a "coalition".

The concept of an EU Emergency Force is laudable but as a citizen of an ex colony, I am aware of the colonial mentality and so I don't think the ex colonials will be welcomed.

As an example, inspite of the devastation the Pakistani earthquake caused, the Pakistanis (including the Pakistani parliamentarians) did not take the absolutely essential otherwise NATO and US with immense suspicion (see threads in Asia sub forum). That is my apprehension even though the concept is laudable.

Like the Africans don't take kindly to the Asiatic lot, the ex colonies are suspicious of the European intent. Take the case of Mital Steel. A fair takeover, but the European govts are fighting tooth and nail to prevent an Asiatic takeover of their largest steel conglomerate! How can one believe that the Europeans have not shed their colonial attitudes while pretending to be fair ?

The Euorpeans want to enter our market de jure and take it over, but the won't let Asiatic people to enter their market in a fair and competitive manner with all issues above board.

Such events are not overlooked.

[Parihaka]

Colonel,

The concept of an EU Emergency Force is laudable but as a citizen of an ex colony, I am aware of the colonial mentality and so I don't think the ex colonials will be welcomed.

Ray, having seen the furore over a woman from here who tried to send food suppliments to starving children in Kenya I'd have to agree.
She happened to own a dog food company, (the suppliments weren't dog food and weren't even made in the same factory) but she was lambasted throughout Africa as a colonial racist because she was sending 'dog food' and they would rather "see the children starve" than subject them to such colonialist condescension. A very touchy subject indeed.

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,

Then, the simple question is who's left?

[Ellopian]

What a stupid idea to say that the UN are useless. But i understrand, since it's a pro-US idea. You wan't to be the only one to command the world, you'd like to erase the other attempts to make it more equal (UE, UN ...).