Switzerland's "deportation initiative"

[Tarek Morgen]

A Picture from SVPs "Greater Switzerland".

on 10 million more German speakers!

I doubt that you could call the people in Baden-Württemberg exactly "German Speakers".

[tantalus]

nice map, they really are nuts. Was/Is that that really core party policy?

[crooks]

A Picture from SVPs "Greater Switzerland".



I doubt that you could call the people in Baden-Württemberg exactly "German Speakers".

As in the dialect is different? If I'm 'Suisse' from Geneva or Neuchatel I don't think I'd care about internal distinctions, Deutsch ist Deutsch! It'd radically alter the power structure of Switzerland and make the Latin minorities miniscule, versus their current pretty decent (and protected) position. Which interestingly may have been the idea from the SVP, as Latin Swiss tend to be more liberal/left-wing than German Swiss.

[Tarek Morgen]

nice map, they really are nuts. Was/Is that that really core party policy?

It is not something that they persue with ernest, but it was a serious proposal (though few outside the SVP took it serious). It serves as a good example on how ...nutty...the SVP can be.

[kato]

I take it the good people of Baden-Wurttemberg weren't amused?

There are parts of Baden-Württemberg that do in fact have a sort of secessionist stance. Only one that is sorta serious though is Büsingen am Hochrhein, a village of 1500 people that sits in an exclave inside Swiss territory and is among other things in a customs and taxation union with Switzerland. Büsingen is not part of the joint EU customs union. Campione d'Italia, an italian exclave in Switzerland, has a similar status.
There are some other parts of Baden-Württemberg that are traditionally zugewandt, "allocated" to Switzerland, such as Rottweil - a formerly independent Imperial City which formally is in an "eternal alliance" with the Swiss Federation since 1519 (and the dialect the people in that area speak - a mix of Bodensee-Alemannisch with Oberschwäbisch - is also very close to Swiss German), and was a member of the Swiss Federation from 1463 to 1519.

I've heard of Swiss (and indeed some locals within the area) who claim that Vorarlberg could be seen as part of 'Greater Switzerland', but never anywhere in Germany - is it a dialect thing?

After WW2 (and before the founding of West Germany in 1949) there was a sort of serious attempt in Baden and Württemberg at creating a "Swabian Nation", consisting ultimately of Swabia/Alemannia, Alsace, Vorarlberg, Tirol, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, based on the joint language and cultural heritage. There was an organization dedicated to that cause for two or three years supported mostly by Upper Swabian nobility and politicians in South Baden - and an attempt to form a separatist political party that was foiled by the French occupation forces. There were quite a couple local politicians at the time that supported such moves, with e.g. the mayor of Singen also calling for an inclusion of Bavaria (without Franconia) and the rest of Austria to form an "union alpine".

Which interestingly may have been the idea from the SVP, as Latin Swiss tend to be more liberal/left-wing than German Swiss.

One of the joking answers you can sometimes read connected with the idea is: "and next thing the SVP will offer France to give them French Switzerland". ;)

I doubt that you could call the people in Baden-Württemberg exactly "German Speakers".

As in the dialect is different?

Swiss German speakers on TV quite often get subtitles, since most (North) Germans won't understand them. At all. Some parts of Baden-Württemberg aren't far behind, language-wise.


Note for map: Green lines are current political borders. Red area has speakers of the Alemannic dialect group.

[Tarek Morgen]

First projections predicts a majority for the deportation initiative with 53% of the people and over the half of the cantons supporting it. While it will take hours until the results are final it seems like the SVP has won.

[Doktor]

The referendum was a success, did the Swiss implemented it? I ask this because if they did, I didn't heart anything about worsening EU-Swiss economic relations, nor Switzerland out of Schengen.

[kato]

It's not implemented yet.

There's a work group trying to implement it in such a way that it's legal (not exactly easy, there's pitfalls both in the Swiss constitution and in international law). They are basically working along four possible venues: Creating a list of crimes that lead to deportation; creating a legal norm without working with such a list; examining possible exemptions for minor crimes (and for e.g. self-defense!); and the possibility of applying it through immigration law instead of criminal law.
This work group will draft a final report by June 2011 which will form the basis for the legal implementation.

As a first result of the initiative, applications for naturalisation have considerably increased btw. In Zürich for example by 31%.

[dave lukins]

Swiss as signed several bilateral treaties with the EU, among other things the treaty grants the right of free movement of EU citizens in Switzerland and the right of residence. While it is possible to revoke those rights under certain conditions the offenses mentioned in the LAW themselves are not enough (the person would have to be declared a danger to the general peace and order and to fulfil this it must be proven that said person is a continuing danger. Commting a simple crime is not enough). Also, to my understanding, this would have to be done on a case by case basis and not through an automated process as the proposed law demands.

Article 121 sec.3-6 (3a) already states what crimes would constitute dismissal from the Country. All the crimes stated would constitute a danger to the populace and therefore they would have the right to evict them from the Country. These are serious crimes against the people of Switzerland who also have a right under Law, International or not, to protection from foreigners committing crimes in their homeland.

[kato]

The initiative as passed would allow people to be deported for e.g. committing a single minor theft in theory. That's what it's about.

What Article 121 btw? Definitely not Schengen ;)

[dave lukins]

If Switzerland breaks part of a treaty with the EU, the remaining ones would probably get nullified. This means that Switzerland loses acces to the common market of the EU. Due being surrounded by the EU (with the exception of Liechtenstein, whose economical impact I think we can ignore in this case) the vast majority of its trade is the EU. Without this trade the Swiss economy would indeed collapse. Of course this would not be great for the EU itself either, but Switzerland would suffer much more.

Remind me again of how many EU Members have secret bank accounts in Switzerland ;)

[dave lukins]

Not really, a criminalis a criminal, they are not entitled to rights they were not willing to extend to others via thier own actions. As for treaties, the Swiss were stupid for letting a forgien government have that much say with internal law and orderissues

Most of Europe are 'guilty as charged' to that

[dave lukins]

Yup equality before the law does not mean you can't deport criminals back to their home country. I just donlt get what the big deal is, if they broke the law and are convicted- send them home.

Simple and straight to the point. Easy solution until you hit the brick wall called Human Rights. There are probably more HR to protect the criminal than there is for the Law abiding citizen

The law allows foreigners to be deported into countries where they might face torture. This is against internation law.

This is binding for the Swiss, not simply because it is international law, but because the Swiss Constitution explict states that Swiss law may not violate these.

Due equalty before the law (even for foreign criminals) this section of the Swiss constituion must not be ignored.

If the law would be passed in a version that would prohibt to deport people to countries where they might face torture it would no longer violate the Swiss Constitution (as far as I understand this. There might be other issues regarding the constitution I am not aware of).

Yet even then it would violate their treaties with the EU, with most likely the
consequences mentioned here earlier.

We have the same problem in the UK. Criminals automatically claim that if sent back they would be tortured or killed and we fall for it every single time. Failing that they go begging to Courts of Human Rights who inevertably say they can stay, where they commit yet more crime. The system stinks and needs to change.

[kato]

Deportation "to their home country" hits a big wall when we're talking about countries with Ius Sanguinis.

[USSWisconsin]

These crimianls had an opportunity to avoid the terrors of their homeland when they came to where ever they are, by breaking laws and becoming a menace to that "refuge" society, IMO, they have forfitted the "right" not to face the consquences of the place they they fled.