George Bush, please! Punish Kim Jong Il

[Confed999]

At least the deaths will be limited to North Koreans only

What makes you better than them?

it wont be anywhere near if the numbers would be if there was war.

That depends how many more decades we go before doing something. How many should die before it's worth doing something?

going to war due to humanitarian issues makes even less sense.

That's funny, because it's the only reason I can see a war possibly be being worth it.

[Horrido]

Two big, BIG problems with North Korea and invasion/reunification. First-off, the population is SERIOUSLY brainwashed into total compliance with the regime. Kim Jung Il IS their god. Despite how they are dying from famine, they've still got it better than the rest of the world, at least in their minds. Now, for the other side of the coin, if they ever learn how good it really is in China and South Korea, it's going to be a massive exodus, and neither the PRC nor SK can afford or support that. The other issue is reunification. South Korea saw what reunification did to West and East Germany, and it wasn't economically pretty. North Korea is exponentially worse-off than East Germany was. South Korea does not want to absorb and get tanked by North Korea's problems.

[Horrido]

And for Ray's enjoyment:

Way back in nineteen-forty-two or maybe forty-three,
I sailed with Captain Tuna, the chicken of the sea.
We didn't sink the Bismarck , no matter what they say,
For when we seen the German ships, we sailed the other way.
We seen torpedos comin' and we saw a periscope.
We were full of fightin' spirit and our souls were full o' hope.
The captain yelled, "Now hear this!" He really flipped his lid.
We haven't yet begun to fight. What's more, we never did.

Oh, we didn't sink the Bismarck and we didn't fight at all.
We spend our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball,
Chasin' after women while our ship was overhauled,
A-livin' it up on grapefruit juice and sickbay alcohol.


Then they made me a frogman on the demolition team.
I sunk a battleship, a cruiser, and a submarine.
I blew up ammunition dumps. I did my best to please.
I did it all before the Navy sent me overseas.


Tony, our Italian cook, was a-settin' on the deck,
And we were a-peelin' 'taters. We must 'a' peeled a peck.
The captain yelled, "Hey, Tony! Is that a U-boat I see?"
Tony says, "It's not-a my boat; it's-a no belong to me."


Oh, we didn't sink the Bismarck and we didn't fight at all.
We spend our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball,
Chasin' after women while our ship was overhauled,
A-livin' it up on grapefruit juice and sickbay alcohol.


And now the war is over and our story can be told
About our captain's fightin' and the young ones and the old.
We stayed in San Francisco , away from the battle scenes.
We spent our time on Treasure Island a-fightin' the Marines.


Oh, we didn't sink the Bismarck and we didn't fight at all.
We spend our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball,
Chasin' after women while our ship was overhauled,
A-livin' it up on grapefruit juice and sickbay alcohol.

[huh_what]

What makes you better than them?

NOthing. But the truth is that the US is in no position to make war if a governmentis killing off their own. Look at mao zedong, stalin, and rwanda; only if NK attacks SK or japan or attempts to will a war be justified.

That depends how many more decades we go before doing something. How many should die before it's worth doing something?

How about Rwanda? US didn't give a crap about Rwandans, why would they care about the north koreans. Go to Africa and give them help, they want it, north koreans don't.

That's funny, because it's the only reason I can see a war possibly be being worth it.

I wonder how the general public would like the idea of sending tens of thousands of people to NK to do what... "liberate the people". North koreans don't want to be liberated. They live in a totalitarian society and this is perfectly normal for them. Just like in the book 1984. Even south koreans don't like the US presence in the peninsula. Also, North koreans are brought up to believe that the US/SK started the Korean War. THe NK society is a militaristic society. Kids are though how to fight in the schools and it is mendatory for men serve for over a decade in the militrary. A liberation force of US/SK troops will be mistaken as another invasion force. All the economy/citizen effort is to support the military. Making war on the NK military is like making war on the people.

[Ray]

Horrido,



A great one!

I have saved that parody on my hard disk.

Good one!

The Royal Navy won't be pleased at all. Why don't you post it on ARRSE the British Army Informal Web site?

[Confed999]

NOthing. But the truth is that the US is in no position

Why should it just be the US? I don't think we're on the same page here, go back and read my first post in this thread...

Look at mao zedong, stalin, and rwanda; only if NK attacks SK or japan or attempts to will a war be justified.

Yeah, look at them, and ask if realpolitik is worth it...

How about Rwanda?

Yeah, how about Rwanda too?

Go to Africa and give them help

I support that too, as well as Cuba, Parts of South America, most of the Middle East, and huge chunks of Asia...

I wonder how the general public would like the idea of sending tens of thousands of people to NK

Anyone who doesn't is part of the reason tyrants exist in the first place.

They live in a totalitarian society and this is perfectly normal for them.

So a child in an abusive situation is ok? I mean after all, it's perfectly normal for them...

All the economy/citizen effort is to support the military. Making war on the NK military is like making war on the people.

Kinda like fighting Germany and Japan 60 years ago?

[huh_what]

The whole point is that if you make war to save the north koreans, you are basically doing what you tried to prevent in the first place. You are worried about koreans dying. Well is a war going to stop that? The NK people are the military. What will happen if the regime does fall? there going to be a unification which add to the economic problems of the south...etc etc. So why lose thousands of SK lives and American lives and make America look like a bully to the rest of the world when it just oges back to square 1. The manpower/funding could be used elsewhere where it would be more beneficial. Rmember that NK don't want help, they will die for their dictator.

[huh_what]

Why should it just be the US?

why the hell would South KOreans support a war(starting a war) with the Nkoreans. They are practically the same people.

Yeah, look at them, and ask if realpolitik is worth it...

I dont thing NK and Kil Jung Il care much about international image

Yeah, how about Rwanda too?

A million people were killed. US didn't intervene beacuse what's there to gain from it? SAme goes for NK. A peaceful unification is a better way to set up occupation in China's backyard. A war with NK could trigger another Chinese intervention, which adds more problems, more deaths, more economic ruin for the future Korea.

I support that too, as well as Cuba, Parts of South America, most of the Middle East, and huge chunks of Asia...

I support it too. Lets use the money/efforts where it will be most beneficial.

Anyone who doesn't is part of the reason tyrants exist in the first place.

It's human nature. They don't want families and friends, and their tax dollars go to a war effort to help people that are their potential enemies, who constantly threaten to do sh*t.

So a child in an abusive situation is ok?

A war isn't going to help much with that either.

Kinda like fighting Germany and Japan 60 years ago?

Yes- except that the whole point of the war that you want is to help the korean people- which practically beats its purpose because what is there to destroy and who is there to kill when you are supposed to be liberating them. In awar into Nk, you see the koreans as friendlies, they see you as foes; therefore you have to respond as if they were foes.

[huh_what]

i do want to help the North Koreans- i just dont think that "punishing" Kim Jung Il or starting a war would do much good
Just look at his f__ked up country.

[Confed999]

Well is a war going to stop that?

It will stop the purposeful starvation, torture, execution, enslavement, and imprisonment of people, yes.

there going to be a unification which add to the economic problems of the south...

Best bet is new country.

Rmember that NK don't want help

Last I checked, everyone starving, being tortured, being executed, being falsely imprisoned, wanted help...

why the hell would South KOreans support a war(starting a war) with the Nkoreans. They are practically the same people.

The same reason all free peoples should support the removal of any tyranical regime, because we're all practically the same people. Again, I ask why should it just be the US, or even just the US and SK, or even just the US and SK and UK and Japan? Honestly, if SK doesn't care what's happening to the people in NK, they're no better than NK.

I dont thing NK and Kil Jung Il care much about international image

I have no idea what you're talking about. Please reread what I quoted, then what I said. I wasn't talking to them, I was talking to you.

A million people were killed. US didn't intervene beacuse what's there to gain from it?

Realpolitik at work, something you've obviously given your trust too. Those people are dead because of that trust.

I support it too.

How can you support one, and not the other? Too much hypocracy for me.

They don't want families and friends, and their tax dollars go to a war effort to help people that are their potential enemies, who constantly threaten to do sh*t.

Actually it would go to defeat an enemy of humanity, and to help potential friends.

A war isn't going to help much with that either.

So then you say that's ok. Well I think I know where you're comming from now. Unlike you, I won't sit back and allow things like that to happen.

you see the koreans as friendlies,

Anyone who fights for a tyrant is the enemy. Plain and simple.

i do want to help the North Koreans- i just dont think that "punishing" Kim Jung Il or starting a war would do much good

Waiting around to see if things get better, when all reasonable evidence points to the opposite, does no good. In fact, from their government's threats and continuing campaign of weapons over food, it could end up costing millions of more lives. I'll take "not much" over "none" any day...

[HistoricalDavid]

Huh_what, Rwanda occured soon after the 1993 US intervention in Somalia - the 'highlight' of which was 19 American deaths, including Randy Shugart's and Gary Gordon's bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. Of course they didn't intervene on a major scale, though there were some special forces there. Rwanda should have been sorted out but at least show some understanding for that temporary aberration!

Rmember that NK don't want help, they will die for their dictator.

Thankfully, Reagan didn't think that back in the '80s about the Warsaw Pact. :)

How about Rwanda? US didn't give a crap about Rwandans, why would they care about the north koreans. Go to Africa and give them help, they want it, north koreans don't.[/b]

Africans want help? They've made exceedingly poor use of the aid and military intervention so far!

Plus, brush up on your history about the US's attitude to the Rwandan genocide.

North koreans don't want to be liberated. They live in a totalitarian society and this is perfectly normal for them.

I suppose, when I was four months old and Romania's communist government fell, I didn't want to be liberated?

Did the Soviets and Eastern Europeans not want to be liberated?

You underestimate human resolve.

All the economy/citizen effort is to support the military.

By force.

What if he doesn't and his regime falls and what if there is a unification without a bloodshed?

It would be nice for that to happen.

But your view is akin to saying "You can cross the road and not look both ways, and there's a good chance you won't be run over."

North korean artillery can shell Seoul even from their side of the DMZ.

A lot of that artillery may well be taken out in the first few hours of a war, and if it isn't...?

Cities throughout the twentieth century have been shelled and bombed and they didn't collapse. There may be a few thousand Seouleans killed but the end benefit may be 22 million North Koreans freed and the South safe from invasion.

How much of this will be deployed?

There are about 20,000 US troops deployed right now but given a few months, like in 1990, the capabilities of US logistics are considerable. A force of hundreds of thousands of US troops alone, not counting other coalition members, will be able to aid the 700,000-odd South Korean troops. Not to mention, US airpower is available readily all over the world.

how much of will be allowed to be deployed given how people are pissed off about Iraq as they are now.

That won't stop it. Iraq is less convincing a case than NK.

K has Kim Jung Il in power. He's going to do all he can to wreck havok before he either dies or flees to China. He might even have a atomic bomb soon.

Right.

why the hell would South KOreans support a war(starting a war) with the Nkoreans. They are practically the same people.

So?

[Confed999]

I like you Dave, you're alright in my book. ;)

[HistoricalDavid]

I like you Dave, you're alright in my book. ;)

You too, Mr. Libertarian. :)

[huh_what]

Anyone who fights for a tyrant is the enemy. Plain and simple.

what are you talking about. You are trying trying to save the people. Everyone fights for the tyrant in North Korea.

will be able to aid the 700,000-odd South Korean troops

Against a 900.000 uniformed NK soldiers and citizens who support them. Unlike the first Korean war, US soldiers won't be welcomed by the north koreans. Even the SK want the US military presence out.

Actually it would go to defeat an enemy of humanity

I thought the whole purpose of the war was to liberate and help the people. You won't be doing that by killing them.

up costing millions of more lives.

Result of American Media?

Best bet is new country.

Thats what it is now.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You asked if Stalin and Mao Zedong thought realpolitik was worth it. Kim Jung Il wouldnt give a crap about it.

I'll take "not much" over "none" any day...

With out caring about the consequence? Would China just sit back and not do anything while its ally and bufferzone between US allies is being attacked?

Last I checked, everyone starving, being tortured, being executed, being falsely imprisoned, wanted help...

War is help?

How can you support one, and not the other? Too much hypocracy for me.

HOw can you want war with NK but help them at the same time? Isn't that hypocracy

[HistoricalDavid]

what are you talking about. You are trying trying to save the people. Everyone fights for the tyrant in North Korea.[/b]

What are YOU talking about? How on earth can you guarantee that?

Against a 900.000 uniformed NK soldiers and citizens who support them. Unlike the first Korean war, US soldiers won't be welcomed by the north koreans.

Have I not implicitly stated that quantity is not everything? At the very least each South Korean serviceman could kill at least several North Korean servicemen. And the South Koreans won't support troops who are trying to stop them being shelled.

Even the SK want the US military presence out.

Idiots. That US military presence will act as a 'tripwire' guaranteeing massive US intervention.

I thought the whole purpose of the war was to liberate and help the people. You won't be doing that by killing them.

Killing SOME of them. Some civilians will inevitably be killed but 22 million will be freed.

Result of American Media?

Here we go again, with the 'No, they aren't really starving (!)' line...

Face it, the North Koreans have to get food and medicine from the South, Japan, China and the United States, in exchange for WMD moratoria, which they promptly break.

With out caring about the consequence? Would China just sit back and not do anything while its ally and bufferzone between US allies is being attacked?

It might well. It certainly doesn't have the military capability to initiate a successful military campaign or retaliation against the US, much less the will considering their lucrative exports to the US.

War is help?

Yup. France, Germany, Japan, the Balkans countries, perhaps even the Warsaw Pact all agree.

[b]HOw can you want war with NK but help them at the same time? Isn't that hypocracy

Thus the limited nature of your thinking on this matter is revealed.

You can't think in more than one stage, can you?

Can't you make the mental leap to analysing what benefits the war may bring?

Ultimately, even if the North Koreans all support their leader and government, a war would utterly destroy their military, just like the Gulf War did to Iraq's. Hence, a threat to three quite liberal democracies, South Korea, Japan and the United States, is REMOVED.

And I like that.