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If there was no free will, you will see Iraqi children being strapped with dynamite and being blown to kingdom come. It hasn't happened, has it?
Aside from that, just what authority do you speak with? This is a very established forum with members who have served all over the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia. Big K is a Turk who arguably is at least immersed in Islam. Others have had direct contact with their clerics and combatants.
So, what gives you the privledge of speaking as though you know everything about Islam.
Originally posted by Officer of EngineersView Post
If there was no free will, you will see Iraqi children being strapped with dynamite and being blown to kingdom come. It hasn't happened, has it?
Aside from that, just what authority do you speak with? This is a very established forum with members who have served all over the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia. Big K is a Turk who arguably is at least immersed in Islam. Others have had direct contact with their clerics and combatants.
So, what gives you the privledge of speaking as though you know everything about Islam.
well nice to meet you Officer of Engineers.
yes indeed children and even women are being strapped with explosives in Iraq. and not only in Iraq but in some of the other 8000 terrorism attacks since 911.
as for my experience, I have practiced and studied Islam for over 30 years. and Islamic theology is most of reason for terrorism acts as many intelligence officers will tell you.
yes indeed children and even women are being strapped with explosives in Iraq. and not only in Iraq but in some of the other 8000 terrorism attacks since 911.
as for my experience, I have practiced and studied Islam for over 30 years. and Islamic theology is most of reason for terrorism acts as many intelligence officers will tell you.
Radical Islam most certainly but you do know that the majority of the Muslims are at least neutral if not on our side in the GWOT. Otherwise, we would be engaging Islamic armies across the world and that is not the case. In fact, two very big Islamic armies are on our side - the Pakistanis and the Turks.
Originally posted by Officer of EngineersView Post
Please find me one such incident in Iraq.
Radical Islam most certainly but you do know that the majority of the Muslims are at least neutral if not on our side in the GWOT. Otherwise, we would be engaging Islamic armies across the world and that is not the case. In fact, two very big Islamic armies are on our side - the Pakistanis and the Turks.
sure babe, here you go:
"By Thomas Wagner
ASSOCIATED PRESS
6:03 a.m. September 28, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq – A woman strapped with explosives blew herself up outside an Iraqi army recruiting center in a northern town Wednesday, killing at least six people and wounding 30 in the first known attack by a female suicide bomber in the country's bloody insurgency.
The attack in Tal Afar, where U.S. and Iraqi forces routed militants in a major offensive two weeks ago, demonstrated the difficulty of maintaining security in the towns in the large northwestern region stretching to the Syrian border, where insurgents are most active."
and I'm not talking about muslims in general, so no need to try the "racism" route. that's not where I'm at. Islam cannot distinguish between radical and not so until then, it's just plain Islam.
and I'm not talking about muslims in general, so no need to try the "racism" route. that's not where I'm at. Islam cannot distinguish between radical and not so until then, it's just plain Islam.
Then, just what the hell are you trying to say? Those Muslims who shoot on our side are just as bad as those who shoot at us?
Originally posted by Officer of EngineersView Post
Children. I want an example of children. The ones without any free will.
Then, just what the hell are you trying to say? Those Muslims who shoot on our side are just as bad as those who shoot at us?
average age is 18-25 with some exception. but the point is free will, and in most cases these bombers choose the chore because of Islamic conditioning. if you are saying that free will means volunteering then, yes, I agress. but if free will means they have a choice... there isn't much room for choice in Islam.
as far as muslims on our side... the assassination attempt on Cheney is an example of how muslims stepped aside to harm non-muslims, and a big VIP too. there are also instances in the Green Zone where Iraqi military have stepped aside for Americans to be ambushed.
point being, the Muslim brotherhood is stronger than a temporary war alliance and always will be. even shia and sunni will united against a kaffir or infidel if necessary.
even shia and sunni will united against a kaffir or infidel if necessary.
iraq is disproving both ends of your statement right now.
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
sectionOne,
iraq is disproving both ends of your statement right now.
their government is on a 2 month break. and don't worry, there's more war to come. and this is what CNN told me this morning: "On Wednesday, Iraq's largest Sunni political bloc, the Iraqi Accord Front, left the Cabinet, after claims they were "marginalized". The move is likely further cripple the embattled Shiite-dominated government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki."
as for my experience, I have practiced and studied Islam for over 30 years. and Islamic theology is most of reason for terrorism acts as many intelligence officers will tell you.
if all of "counterterrorism specialists" are like you,
than we dont need terrorists anymore...
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.
the very fact that neither shi'a nor sunni can come together (and for that matter, are so split even within their own sectarian group) against an admittedly unpopular occupation only goes to show that far from fearing the americans, they fear each other the most.
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
Come, Come again !
Whatever you are...
Whether you are infidel,
idolater or fireworshipper.
Whether you have broken your vows
of repentance a hundred times
This is not the gate of despair,
This is the gate of hope.
Come, come again...
Mevlana Jelaluddin RUMI
did you ever heard of Mevlana????????
during your "30 years of Islamic experience" ??????????
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.
In the religion of Islam, one of the articles of belief is related with the belief in Divine Destiny, However, the position of human will vis-ŕ-vis Divine Destiny has been one of the most discussed subjects in the science of Islamic theology. Some Islamic theologians argue that since man's actions belonged to God, he or she cannot have the freedom of choice, and therefore, cannot be kept responsible for his or her actions. This idea was named as Jabr (compulsion), and those who accepted it as Jabri. On the other hand, those who favoured the freedom of choice (ikhtiyar), which is in contrast to the idea of compulsion, asserted that man has unlimited freedom of choice; and with this assertion they had finally arrived at a point of rejecting the Divine Destiny.
When we look at Mevlana’s thoughts about the freedom of will and compulsion (jabr}, we clearly see that he never supports two extremities, but favours the moderation. By so doing, on the one hand while he is accepting the freedom of choice for man, on the other hand he accepts the existence of the Divine Destiny.
God, who is the Owner of the attributes of Knowledge, Will and Power, acts upon His creatures through His will and power. It is impossible for man to overcome the Divine Destiny. Mevlana, in his Fihi Mafih, tells us the story of Abraham Atham as an example of this fact: One day the Sultan Abraham Atham went hunting. While he was riding his horse behind ft gazelle, he fell away from his retinue. When the Sultan and the gazelle arrived in a desolate place, the gazelle spoke to him: "You are not created for hunting. God has not created you for ml" reason." When Abraham Atham heard these words, he penitently perceived the mystery of his creation. He quickly gave his robe. Horse and arms to a shepherd, whom he saw there; then, he won the shepherd's cloak, and walked in the way of Sufism. So, he became game for God, while wishing to hunt a gazelle. The same thing happened with Omar, the second Caliph of Islam. Before embracing Islam, Omar furiously went to kill the Prophet Muhammad with a sword in his hand. However, when he saw the Prophet his anger calmed down and he became a Muslim. "I had come here with the intention of killing you. As an expiation of my sin, whoever says a bad word about you, I will cut off his head with my sword" said Omar, and then left the mosque. He met his father outside the mosque. When his father rebuked him for his becoming a Muslim, Omar immediately cut his father head off with his sword. While the pagans of Quraish were waiting for the head of the Prophet Muhammad from Omar, the met with the head of Omar's father (Fihi Mafih, 248-51).
The subject of Divine Destiny is treated with in the story of Pharaoh's dream of the coming of Moses in the Mesnevi. The Pharaoh was shown in a dream that Moses would come and destroy him and his kingdom. In order to protect his kingdom, he ordered all the Israelites might remain far away from meeting with their wives. Nevertheless, his all strict measures were invalidated by the Divine Power. At last, Moses was born. Win n he learnt from the astrologers that he was born, he killed hundreds of thousands of male children who were born in that year. In order to protect her baby, the mother of Moses en-' Moses into the River Nile. The cradle of Moses was dragged up by the river, and finally, arrived in the palace of the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh's wife prevented this baby from death, and took him under her protection. So, all the Pharaoh's measures proved fruitless, and he brought up his mortal enemy, Moses, in his own Palace without knowing (Mesnevi, III/843-980).
Mevlana expressed with similar examples that Almighty God is the owner of attributes of will and power. The belief of divine Destiny, which is one of the articles of Belief, is also in this nature. In fact, God gave man the religion and knowledge, sent books and messengers to him to show the right path, and announced that all men would be kept responsible for their unions in this world and given reward or punishment in accordance with their doings. All these things indicate that man has a part will and is responsible for his actions before the Divine Will.
There are a lot of examples for the existence of the part will. Mevlana's first example about this subject belongs to the Prophet Adam. Adam had tasted the fruit of the forbidden tree in the Garden, but then become conscious of his grave mistake and cried in repentance: "O our Sustained We have sinned against inn selves." (Mesnevi, I1304-08)
"Nay," said the Sultan, "that which proceeds from one's self K the product of (one's own) remissness and the income derived from (one's own) labour.
Otherwise, how should Adam have said unto God, 'O our Lord, verily we have wronged ourselves'?
We are left vacillating between two (alternative) actions: how should this vacillation be without (unaccompanied by) free will?
How should he whose hands and feet are chained say, "Shall I do this or shall I do that?" (Mesnevi, VI/408-14).
Again, Mevlana said:
"Do not put the blame on Destiny, O youth: how can you lay upon others (responsibility for) your own sin?
Vacillation, then, must have (in connection with it) a power to act.
Circle round yourself and perceive your sin.
When you have eaten (too much) honey, the fever (caused by it) does not come to (does not attack) another; your day's wages do not come at nightfall to another.
What have you sown without the produce of the seed coming (back to you)?
Your action that is born of your soul and body clings to your skirt like your own child.
Do not lay (responsibility for) your sin upon any one else: give your mind and ear to this retribution.
Lay the sin upon yourself, for you yourself sowed (the seed). (Mesnevi, VI/418-25)
Mevlana, here, stressed another fact that our humility against any kind of work is evidence of the Divine Destiny, and our sense of guilt is evidence of free will:
"Our humility is evidence of necessity, (but) our sense of guilt is evidence of free will.
If there were not free will, what is this shame? And what is this sorrow and guilty confusion and abashment?" (Mesnevi, I/644-45)
Mevlana opposed to those who rejected the part will, laid the guilt of their actions upon God, and by so doing, ran away from the responsibility:
"In every act for which you have no inclination, you are clearly conscious of your power (to perform it),
(But) in every act for which you have no inclination and desire, in regard to that (act) you have become necessitarian, saying, This is from God.'" (Mesnevi, 1/661-62}
"A certain man was climbing up a tree and vigorously scattering the fruit in the manner of thieves.
The owner of the orchard came along and said (to him), 'O rascal, where is your reverence for God? What you doing?'
He replied, 'If a servant of God eat from God's orchard the dales which God has bestowed upon him as a gift.'
Then at once he bound him tightly to the tree and thrashed him hard on the back and legs with a cudgel.
He (the thief) cried. 'Pray, have some reverence for God! Thou art killing me miserably who is innocent.'
He answered, 'With God's cudgel this servant of His is soundly beating the back of another servant.
This is God's cudgel, and the back and sides belong to Him: I urn (only) the slave and instrument of His command." (Mesnevi, V/3086-95)
Mevlana cited another story concerning the same subject:
"A thief said to the magistrate, 'O (my) king, that which I have done was decreed by God,'
A magistrate replied, 'That which I am doing is also decreed by God. O light of my eyes.'" (Mesnevi, V/3067-68)
These examples clearly show that Mevlana criticises those who does not accept the part will and charge the Divine Will and fate responsible for their actions: "Do you ever say to a stone, 'Come tomorrow; and if you don't come, I will give your bad behaviour the punishment it deserves'?" (Mesnevi, V/3035-40). In fact, the entire Qur'an, which was brought down to guide human beings to the right path, consists of commands and prohibitions. If man did not have free will, God Almighty would not send his commands.
As a result, we may sum up Mevlana’s thoughts on the free will: Man is a supreme being and has knowledge. He (or she) has been created as having the right and power of choice. His part will is free to choose whatever he likes. However, man, who has intellect and knowledge, must work by using his part will and direct himself to good and useful things. Laziness and inactivity cannot be attributed to fate. What direction the divine will goes cannot be known, but man must work, take his measures, and surrender to the Divine Will, after using his own part will.
without freewill,
there will be no "sin" or "evil" or etc...
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.
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