Massacre at Virginia Campus

[SnowLeopard]

Actually, the gun culture is so conspicuous by its absence in India or should I say in the city where I live that when I retired some wondered, being a military man, did I have a Bofor gun in my cupboard!!!!

Imagine that! They don't know what an artillery piece is or how huge and long it is!

And I am not making that up!

Well ....... that's not uncommon. I was in forensic anthropology class and we were going over measuring the size of the hole in the bones to estimate the kind of round that made it. Essentially, all the rounds less than the diameter of the hole could have made it but nothing larger than that. So the prof is tossing out a diameter and then round sizes of whether it could have done it or not. The hole is half an inch.

.22? Yes, .45? Yes, 40 mm? Yes ........ and it goes on for a second before I point out that a 40 mm is an antitank shell!

But one of my classmates pointed out that they were anthropologists, not ballistics experts, so why should they know the difference between between caliber and mm measurement of barrels? There would be some other expert in the office for that.

In America.
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(Helen has a huge hole thru her. "You're a fraud, Helen! You're a walking lie and I can see right through you."--Madeline Ashton, (w,stte), "Death Becomes Her")

[gamercube]

Wow. Just ................wow.

And to think that the callous attitude of American politicians over gun laws is what these people died for...........it's an absolute shame.

[SnowLeopard]

Actually, the gun culture is so conspicuous.........

Another thing is that cultures vary, even within a country. Growing up, my father had diplomatic status for a while, we had diplomatic immunity and the mud colored passports. We, myself and my brothers, were also taught that we would be sacrificed before the State. The State would not be surrendered to pay our ransom if we were kidnapped. If they say, "Hand over State secrets or we kill your brother," the response is, "Go ahead! We have already picked out the wine for the wake!" .....................

And expressing that to other Americans, who haven't been there, they see that as cruel, insane, military a**l retentive, and so forth.

But it is the way things are and across the board, the knowledge, the attitudes, the ways, in one particular group or another is likely to be different from another.
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("Their ends are just, but their means are ruthless."--Nikita on Section One, voiceover intro, (w,stte), "La Femme Nikita")

[Ray]

Some neews:

Shock, Sympathy And Denunciation Of U.S. Gun Laws - washingtonpost.com

[Parihaka]

Wow. Just ................wow.

And to think that the callous attitude of American politicians over gun laws is what these people died for...........it's an absolute shame.

Oh...

So they died for a cause, did they?

[Ray]

Snow L

Thanks for info.

That's what is the real truth. What shocks me may not shock you and vice versa.

[lemontree]

Murders (per capita) by country

This is good information.
India has tough gun laws, but its murders per 1000 people is very close to USA without tough gun laws.

So the answer is that tough gun laws DO NOT PREVENT MURDERS.
India has different incidents in colleges that do not go unreported, and are just as henious as classroom massacres.

[SnowLeopard]

Snow L

Thanks for info.

That's what is the real truth. What shocks me may not shock you and vice versa.

Probably. One way or the other, there is a certain degree, certain amount of hardening, despite the wishes, the measures that might be employed to not so be as such. I am a generalist, I know a lot about a lot of things, but when it comes to putting things in order in my head, when it comes down to justifying going after this or that, the defining framework is law enforcement. I'm not a cop, currently, but those who know me agree that the description of a law enforcement researcher accurately describes me ...... even if that might lose others, cause some to see someone who works in a university while anothers might see someone who works for the FSB.

On a different angle, I was looking over gun and holster details on another list and realized there's another thing that people outside of guns don't easily realize. To me, no pistol, no rifle, adequately addresses all issues. My USP .45 is the best pistol, I would want it everywhere ............ but it's artillery, not easy to conceal unless one is wearing a field jacket, carry a briefcase, has a big purse. My Kimber UltraCarry is much easier to conceal ...... but it's not a USP. There are other smaller pistols ...... but whatever others may say about that round, it's not a .45 round which is what I like. And on and on and on.

Now, in the military, it was easy. This is your M1911, that's what you get, you don't get a choice, this is it.

But perhaps that is part of the issue on the table that people don't see. The gun market is just another part of the consumer economics system. Lots of choices to fill lots of niches, something for everyone. And where in the world is this glut, more goods available than the people to buy them, is most apparent? The US, be it guns, cars, clothes, electronics, whatever.

Now, all that said, I don't go out to buy this or that gun to fill every possible little niche. Why not? Well, money is limited and like most people, in addition to the cars, clothes, electronics ......... I also have to eat, have a place to live, pay for endless training, and so forth.
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("But I thought you had the day off!"--Uncle Martin
"So did I but my boss said do the job or else and since I have this fondness for eating, I think I better do the job."--Tim O'Hara, (wtte), "My Favorite Martian")

[bandwagon]

This is good information.
India has tough gun laws, but its murders per 1000 people is very close to USA without tough gun laws.

So the answer is that tough gun laws DO NOT PREVENT MURDERS.
India has different incidents in colleges that do not go unreported, and are just as henious as classroom massacres.

That's not a conclusion you can draw from this. India has a much greater potential for murders than the US because of social deprivation, conflict and insurrection, and gun laws have prevented it from reaching that potential.

It is true that many simply find alternative ways of killing, but guns are an easy way, and not having one would prevent many impulsive killings, and make many attempted killings ineffective. The threshold for killing is higher in societies with low gun ownership.

[Parihaka]

That's not a conclusion you can draw from this. India has a much greater potential for murders than the US because of social deprivation, conflict and insurrection, and gun laws have prevented it from reaching that potential.

It is true that many simply find alternative ways of killing, but guns are an easy way, and not having one would prevent many impulsive killings, and make many attempted killings ineffective. The threshold for killing is higher in societies with low gun ownership.

Oh I don't know, your conclusions from the data i.e. social deprivation, are a far greater stretch than Lemontrees that there is no clear correlation between gun control and murders.
As I pointed out to commando when he was using NZ as an example, we have gun control but that hasn't prevented us from having our share of mass murderers.

[Blademaster]

That's not a conclusion you can draw from this. India has a much greater potential for murders than the US because of social deprivation, conflict and insurrection, and gun laws have prevented it from reaching that potential.

It is true that many simply find alternative ways of killing, but guns are an easy way, and not having one would prevent many impulsive killings, and make many attempted killings ineffective. The threshold for killing is higher in societies with low gun ownership.

huh? What utter crap! Take a look at India's crime statistics! If you say that India has a much greater potential for murders than US but looking at the murders killed with guns are very much lower than in US, that totally destroys the myth that banning guns will save lives. It doesn't.

When people wants to kill people, they will find a way to do it. Like Cho So Heing, he wanted to kill people. If he didn't have a gun, he would have figured out a way to kill people without a gun. More likely, he would have figure out a way to acquire guns illegally and then kill people.

Face it, guns are everywhere. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle after 600 years of gun warfare. It is so easy to manufacture a gun if you put your mind to it. As we all know, organized criminals would put their minds to manufacturing guns because there would be a black market for them.

[SnowLeopard]

.....It is true that many simply find alternative ways of killing, but guns are an easy way, and not having one would prevent many impulsive killings, and make many attempted killings ineffective. The threshold for killing is higher in societies with low gun ownership.

Ineffective in what way? Ineffective as in, perhaps, when Ted Bundy clubbed his sleeping victim with a piece of wood while she slept? It didn't kill her ........ but it robbed her of her life's dream to be a dancer, what she was at college in the first place to be studying for.

Or perhaps ineffective in those who were maimed but not killed by Ted Kaczynski's bombs? What does it matter if a hand is blown off?

Or perhaps ineffective as in brain injuries when hit on the head with a hammer by Peter Sutcliffe?

Granted, there are a lot of things we don't know in those cases such as would defensive guns had made a difference. But one thing is rather clear ......

......... Ineffective does not mean Harmless or without injury or, possibly, without life altering, ambition destroying, consequences.
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("Miscellenous Affairs? I don't understand all that spy talk. Is this the department that killed my brother?"--terrorist's brother
"No, the only thing we kill is time."--Adderly, (wtte), Adderly "Blood Feud")

[Blademaster]

I heard it was more than angry letters. He was referred for counselling. And I cannot see that stalking and arson would not have involved the police. This should have led to confiscation of any weapons if the right laws were in place. It seems he bought the 9mm only a few weeks ago.

He bought the gun 5 weeks ago. He got the second gun way back in February. There was a Virginia law that states you could only buy one handgun per month and no more than 3 or 4 per year.

As for the arson reports, that is largely unsubstantiated. Ditto for the stalking thing. Stalking is such a loose term. Hell if I followed a woman for 500 meters, that would be considered stalking according to your standards and some other people's standards, but then you wouldn't know that I was following her because she was going the same direction that I was. The point is that the police didn't have enough evidence to charge him and therefore no red flag showed up on the gun shop's computer.

[Grim]

Consider the difference threshold between pulling out your handgun, -which you owned already because it is your right-, and making a bomb. You'd have to be a dedicated longterm nutjob like the Unabomber to bother with the latter. There is simply no precedence for using a bomb in a fit of rage. They are tools of cold-blooded political or religious terrorists, not immature people with grievances, scorned lovers or regular nutjobs. In the UK, the closest comparable society, where there is gun control, only very rarely do you hear of people running amok with alternative weapons. OK on one occasion many years ago a Samurai sword. That's about it.

The founding fathers may have been aware of the alternatives people would employ if the second amendment was not implemented, but they would not have foreseen automatic pistols etc., or been aware of the potenial kill power each gun owner could readily present to society.

Bandwagon Sir ,
The first cannon I built, it was in London. I was 11 living in a place called Hatchend when my Irish friend taught me how to make a molotov cocktail. We built many devices together before I had to move out of London and return to the US at the age of 13. I have you Europeans to thank for some of my civilian training in homemade alternative weapons.
Why do you think a young Irish lad would know all about such things in a land where gun control solves so many problems. Will you brand a young child as a long term nutjob? Our could he have had a grudge and because of his immaturity lashed out in the only why he felt he could.
I recommend you open your eyes to what it is that the youth of your country are really doing when they think no one is watching. By the way do you Brits still sell those big firecrackers with the 2 stage fuses? They were awesome once the second stag started to burn they would,t go out even if you threw them into someone's ---- (better left unsaid)
Ah the memories I do miss my old childhood friends.

[bandwagon]

Oh I don't know, your conclusions from the data i.e. social deprivation, are a far greater stretch than Lemontrees that there is no clear correlation between gun control and murders.
As I pointed out to commando when he was using NZ as an example, we have gun control but that hasn't prevented us from having our share of mass murderers.

OTH: if you look at societies that do match that of the US, eg. Canada, UK, W Europe, there is a screaming correlation between gun control and murder rate. Non-gun related murders are of the same order. when you add gun deaths, the US soars to triple that of the others:

Non-gun murders Gun murders All Murders
per 10m people

US 149 279 428
UK 130 10 140
Ca 100 49 149
Aus 121 29 121

Conclusion?



(Notice murders in Canada compared to the other 2 with gun bans; is that because there is a ready supply across the border?)