The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

[zraver]

Top, so Russia kept HRC from campaigning in the rust belt? Trump squeaked by and it has to do with the fact that HRC ran a lazy unorganized campaign. Had she bothered to show up she would have won. Its been 4 years and no one can point to any specific impacts that Russia had in terms of votes. So are you gonna yell China, China, China since the latest report says China is backing Biden?

[zraver]

Asty, you named 3 events that had nothing to do with legislative paralysis.

[TopHatter]

Top, so Russia kept HRC from campaigning in the rust belt?

I never said any such thing and you know it. In fact, I've got multiple posts since 2016 saying that she ran a shit campaign, but straw man noted.

Believe it or not, Clinton running a shit campaign, and the Trump Campaign being in bed with Russia are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

To quote the (Republican-led) committee's report:

There was a "direct tie between senior Trump Campaign officials and the Russian intelligence services."

“The committee found that Manafort’s presence on the campaign and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on the Trump campaign. Taken as a whole, Manafort’s high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with Russian intelligence services…represented a grave counterintelligence threat.”

"While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents, the Trump Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those materials to aid Trump's electoral prospects. To do so, the Trump Campaign took actions to obtain advance notice about WikiLeaks releases of Clinton emails; took steps to obtain inside information about the content of releases once WikiLeaks began to publish stolen information; created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following their release; and encouraged further theft of information and continued leaks. "

"Trump and senior Campaign officials sought to obtain advance information about WikiLeaks through Roger Stone. In spring 2016, prior to Assange's public announcements, Stone advised the Campaign that WikiLeaks would be releasing materials harmful to Clinton. Following the July 22 DNC release, Trump and the Campaign believed that Roger Stone had known of the release and had inside access to WikiLeaks, and repeatedly communicated with Stone about WikiLeaks throughout the summer and fall of 2016. Trump and other senior Campaign officials specifically directed Stone to obtain information about upcoming document releases relating to Clinton and report back. At their direction, Stone took action to gain inside knowledge for the Campaign and shared his purported knowledge directly with Trump and senior Campaign officials on multiple occasions. Trump and the Campaign believed that Stone had inside information and expressed satisfaction that Stone's information suggested more releases would be forthcoming."

"Trump and the Campaign continued to promote and disseminate the hacked WikiLeaks documents, even after the Office of the Director of National Intelligence [ODNI] and the Department of Homeland Security [DHS] released a joint statement officially attributing the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia as part of its interference in the U.S. presidential election. The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia, and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort."

And, lest we forget, Donald Trump has also:

• Sided with Russia over the States in Helsinki
• Advocated for Russia to be in the G7
• Hasn't confronted Putin regarding the Russian bounties put on United States troops

[GVChamp]

I don't see how making it easier to pass legislation is going to moderate the crazy trends in US politics. Making it easier to pass legislation just ups the stakes, both losing and winning.

The lack of ability to pass anything isn't what's causing the crazy, it's the crazy that's causing the lack of ability to pass anything and the parties locking down to prevent compromise. I mean it's pretty obvious what you THINK you're going to accomplish: you think that by eliminating the filibuster you can get your preferred policy package passed, because moderate Democrats can push through legislation by allying with Bernie Sanders types, and this threat will force sufficient numbers of moderate Republicans to sign on to the bill to prevent passage of an even worse bill.

1. If you all have is a stick, don't be surprised when the stick gets used on you.
2. You really should learn the difference between a carrot and "if you promise to behave, I won't hit you with the stick."
3. You really should see that everyone who doesn't already agree with you realizes that you are just threatening to hit people with a stick.
4. You are not evaluating the dynamics correctly. It is far better for the GOP to become a permanent minority party under your plan: see #2. you are refusing political space to anyone who disagrees with you and refuse to compromise. They aren't going to get anything they want pass anyways, so it becomes more beneficial to become permanent opposition until the wind eventually blows against you (and it always does!) and then they get to use the stick on you.
5. Because of 4, you aren't going to get your preferred policy vision, and you are going to soon learn that "better something than nothing" is dumb and most of the time paralysis is a good thing.
6. You aren't going to be holding much of a stick much longer.

Also, the US isn't Poland. You can still get appointments and budgets passed with majority votes. The US passed TARP and it passed a stimulus bill and it did pass some Corona packages earlier this year even if right now it is deadlocked (which isn't a filibuster issue, it's a divided government issue). Not allowing all college grads to automatically finance their loans at under 4% and not granting amnesty to 12 million people who aren't legally here are not crises.

I would prefer the more moderate, boring, competent, compromising candidates to have more authority, but that's not going to happen when you decide to elevate junior Senators to the Presidency or Vice-Presidency because they are just so handsome, and it turns out they can't get shit done and finish out their terms being whiny bitches passing executive orders because they can't execute their vision.

[astralis]

z,

Asty, you named 3 events that had nothing to do with legislative paralysis.

I named three things which are -symptoms of legislative paralysis-. political violence is what happens when the legislature cannot do its job.

we saw this with political violence leading up to the Civil War as well.

[GVChamp]

Your snippet says that Trump was trying to talk with Wikileaksthrough an intermediary, not Putin. It also says Manafort is a leaky sieve. Manafort being a duplicitous tax cheat is not the same as Trump trying to talk with Putin, and trying to figure what Wikileaks is doing is also not the same as trying to coordinate with Putin.

You might accuse me of downplaying this, but you are trying to set the standard that Trump is basically Manchurian Candidate. That standard is not met.

[astralis]

GVChamp,

I don't see how making it easier to pass legislation is going to moderate the crazy trends in US politics. Making it easier to pass legislation just ups the stakes, both losing and winning.

no it doesn't; it -lowers- the stakes. oh, you guys rammed through an unpopular bill? that's fine, we'll win the next set of elections on account of that and change it on a majority line.

there's a reason why Dems fought tooth and nail to keep the ACA; think of all the confluence of fortunate political events that had to line up PERFECTLY for them to pass it. 60 Senate votes don't come easy!

The US passed TARP and it passed a stimulus bill and it did pass some Corona packages earlier this year even if right now it is deadlocked (which isn't a filibuster issue, it's a divided government issue). Not allowing all college grads to automatically finance their loans at under 4% and not granting amnesty to 12 million people who aren't legally here are not crises.

that's the point. if the ONLY time the US Congress can pass compromises is when the nation is literally at the point of a crisis...and sometimes not even then... then something is seriously wrong with the system.

the US Congress should also be able to pass bills to address problems that aren't at the level of "crisis". that's not asking for much.

that's why so much power has passed to the executive. the President can do fast track free trade authority because Congress filibustered or deadlocked so often. the President can bloody go to war.

[snapper]

I never said any such thing and you know it. In fact, I've got multiple posts since 2016 saying that she ran a shit campaign, but straw man noted.

Believe it or not, Clinton running a shit campaign, and the Trump Campaign being in bed with Russia are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

To quote the (Republican-led) committee's report:

There was a "direct tie between senior Trump Campaign officials and the Russian intelligence services."

“The committee found that Manafort’s presence on the campaign and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on the Trump campaign. Taken as a whole, Manafort’s high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with Russian intelligence services…represented a grave counterintelligence threat.”

"While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents, the Trump Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those materials to aid Trump's electoral prospects. To do so, the Trump Campaign took actions to obtain advance notice about WikiLeaks releases of Clinton emails; took steps to obtain inside information about the content of releases once WikiLeaks began to publish stolen information; created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following their release; and encouraged further theft of information and continued leaks. "

"Trump and senior Campaign officials sought to obtain advance information about WikiLeaks through Roger Stone. In spring 2016, prior to Assange's public announcements, Stone advised the Campaign that WikiLeaks would be releasing materials harmful to Clinton. Following the July 22 DNC release, Trump and the Campaign believed that Roger Stone had known of the release and had inside access to WikiLeaks, and repeatedly communicated with Stone about WikiLeaks throughout the summer and fall of 2016. Trump and other senior Campaign officials specifically directed Stone to obtain information about upcoming document releases relating to Clinton and report back. At their direction, Stone took action to gain inside knowledge for the Campaign and shared his purported knowledge directly with Trump and senior Campaign officials on multiple occasions. Trump and the Campaign believed that Stone had inside information and expressed satisfaction that Stone's information suggested more releases would be forthcoming."

"Trump and the Campaign continued to promote and disseminate the hacked WikiLeaks documents, even after the Office of the Director of National Intelligence [ODNI] and the Department of Homeland Security [DHS] released a joint statement officially attributing the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia as part of its interference in the U.S. presidential election. The Trump Campaign publicly undermined the attribution of the hack-and-leak campaign to Russia, and was indifferent to whether it and WikiLeaks were furthering a Russian election interference effort."

And, lest we forget, Donald Trump has also:

• Sided with Russia over the States in Helsinki
• Advocated for Russia to be in the G7
• Hasn't confronted Putin regarding the Russian bounties put on United States troops

+1 Could not have worded it better.

[TopHatter]

Your snippet says that Trump was trying to talk with Wikileaksthrough an intermediary, not Putin. It also says Manafort is a leaky sieve. Manafort being a duplicitous tax cheat is not the same as Trump trying to talk with Putin, and trying to figure what Wikileaks is doing is also not the same as trying to coordinate with Putin.

You might accuse me of downplaying this, but you are trying to set the standard that Trump is basically Manchurian Candidate. That standard is not met.

As I and others have said repeatedly, if you're looking for security camera footage of Donald Trump leaving the Kremlin with suitcase stuff with cash, then I have no such footage to give you.

But pretending that Trump knew absolutely nothing about his campaign officials (and family members) meetings with the Russians, and their purpose...that's incredibly disingenuous.

Also, when an investigation into such matters is begun, only to have subject stonewalling and obstructing the living shit out of said investigation....it kinda/sorta looks "fishy". To say the least.

And even after everything Trump did to obstruct him, even with his hands tied by Department protocol, Mueller stated that Trump could not be exonerated.

Is Trump really a full-blown "Manchurian Candidate"? I doubt it. But he's done his damnedest to make sure we never find out either way.

[GVChamp]

The Democrats fought tooth-and-nail against Betsy Devos and some throw-away funding for a border wall, I highly doubt reversing prior decisions is going to be the only guide in this particular era. Denying the other side a political victory is obviously a motivating factor. The Democrats sure as hell didn't just let the Bush Tax Cuts pass, thinking that they could just raise them later (as they had when Clinton took office). And I don't blame them, because the Democrats were never going to enjoy that kind of absolute Congressional superiority after 1994, and it's really hard to take away free money after you've already given it away.

Anyways, I don't disagree that we have an issue, I just doubt that your proposed fix is actually going to fix anything. The US doesn't need to pass legislation when half the nation hates the other half the nation, it just needs the ability to continue until it can find a broader consensus that people actually want to sign on for. The lack of the US passing any amendments is evidence that we don't have consensus beyond not allowing Congress to vote itself a pay raise.

[snapper]

Your snippet says that Trump was trying to talk with Wikileaksthrough an intermediary, not Putin. It also says Manafort is a leaky sieve. Manafort being a duplicitous tax cheat is not the same as Trump trying to talk with Putin, and trying to figure what Wikileaks is doing is also not the same as trying to coordinate with Putin.

You might accuse me of downplaying this, but you are trying to set the standard that Trump is basically Manchurian Candidate. That standard is not met.

He DID talk with wikileaks via Roger Stone who he illegally pardoned. It's called a "cut out" or have you never heard of that in your innocent life? If not please remain innocent for that is what the people fighting for your innocent by getting down and dirty if needs be are protecting: your right to remain innocent. New York has also today filed charges tax charges against Trump so Manafort will be not be outdone on that score by his ignorant figurehead.

Look I will try to say it in language you may understand... The Senate Intelligence Committee signed off on both sides (bypartisan) on the 5th Volume of their report. Republican Senators are saying this, not 'secret Obama fans'. Konstantin Kliminick was a GRU operative they find... well it was little wonder to me as he had called himself to friends of mine "Kostya from the GRU" while he resided in Kyiv with Manafort and helped Yanukovych get elected - the Yanukovych that fled to Muscovy in February 2014 after people were murdered in Kyiv. Why did Trumpkin even hire him? Oh he didn't... Manafort worked for free! He 'volunteered' because obviously his gig in Ukraine was done and no more ostrich coats from there. Manafort while 'campaign manager' handed over RNC and private detailed polling to 'Kostya from the GRU'. That is clear 'collusion' with what Muscovy did to help Trumpkins. Are you going to try to tell me that Trumpkins knew nothing about ANY of his campaign advisers/managers links with Muscovy? It does not bear belief. He chose them for that reason partly. He wanted their help. He asked for it. They met and he said it was about 'adoptions' which was a lie; it was about getting rid of sanctions. Flynn was compromised discussing the same thing.

Now the strange thing is that Manafort was somehow 'in debt' to Oleg Deripaska, a Muscovite 'oligarch' and as one needs to be become such a person a close friend of Putin. Comrade Oleg (for he was a former member of the youth group of the Communist Party in the USSR) is not the sort of person you want to cheat, he has only to make a phone call - throw some money to someone - and Spetznaz or worse will come after you; they got the Belorusian 'Lady of the Night' out of Thailand fast enough after her videos were leaked by Navalny (now poison confirmed in Germany). Manafort said to 'Kostya' that he wanted to 'trade his knowledge/involvement' in the Trumpkin campaign against this 'debt' he owed Oleg Deripashka. So Manafort was working for free for Trumpkin to pay off Deripashka... but apparently Trumpkitty and Penny knew nothing right. Didn't have a clue... If that is what you believe then answer me this: Are they the right people to be your running your country?

I mean I could on - Popadapoulis and all the others who have been CON-VICTED. You are sadly still half believing in the con. It is a lie my friend. Trump is TV show host not a great businessman. He is a wannable Putin dictator not a libertarian. He failed disastrously in business but the show promoted an image of him as successful and you got fooled. More importantly because he is a total ignoramous he failed the people of the US when a pandemic came along, on when Muscovy is paying the Taliban to kill your fellow citizens too. I have some time for Libertarianism and the economics behind it but honestly pal if you want freedom this is not your candidate in the next election and Biden is.

[GVChamp]

As I and others have said repeatedly, if you're looking for security camera footage of Donald Trump leaving the Kremlin with suitcase stuff with cash, then I have no such footage to give you.

But pretending that Trump knew absolutely nothing about his campaign officials (and family members) meetings with the Russians, and their purpose...that's incredibly disingenuous.

Also, when an investigation into such matters is begun, only to have subject stonewalling and obstructing the living shit out of said investigation....it kinda/sorta looks "fishy". To say the least.

And even after everything Trump did to obstruct him, even with his hands tied by Department protocol, Mueller stated that Trump could not be exonerated.

Is Trump really a full-blown "Manchurian Candidate"? I doubt it. But he's done his damnedest to make sure we never find out either way.

Looks like a dog that hasn't barked, with an insistence that we dig up half of Montana because obviously that means the dog must have been killed to prevent it from barking. We have uncovered a hell of a lot that doesn't match the pattern described without broad suppositions and speculation.

Snapper,
Manafort was picked to lead the Trump campaign because Manafort has political experience and lobbying experience. The Trump campaign in general had a hell of a time getting anyone to actually help them for obvious reasons.
If you actually bothered reading the Senate intelligence report, you can see that there are multiple people who were interested in trying to arrange various meetings between Trump and Putin, which no one took seriously, and that the people who were most linked to the Russians were distanced from Trump because Trump didn't lik them and unaware that they were occasionally working with Russian intelligence.

You need to develop an incredibly tortured explanation that Trump, who has absolutely no self-control whatsoever, somehow refused to cultivate all these other connections but instead relied extensively on Paul Manafort, and that Trump's firing of Manafort was really just a clever ruse designed to fool everyone...rather than the more mundane explanation that Manafort really wanted to continue lobbying after he left the Trump campaign and was stealing campaign information and Trump fired him after his full connections to Russia were discovered...which is the totally mundane, basically-official explanation that came out at the time.

Trying to coordinate with Wikileaks was not viewed as cooperating with Russian intelligence, as the Senate Intelligence Report makes clear, and which you and TopHatter both neglect to mention in your posts because it vindicates Trump and does not fit into your narratives.

I mean I could on - Popadapoulis and all the others who have been CON-VICTED. You are sadly still half believing in the con. It is a lie my friend. Trump is TV show host not a great businessman. He is a wannable Putin dictator not a libertarian. He failed disastrously in business but the show promoted an image of him as successful and you got fooled. More importantly because he is a total ignoramous he failed the people of the US when a pandemic came along, on when Muscovy is paying the Taliban to kill your fellow citizens too. I have some time for Libertarianism and the economics behind it but honestly pal if you want freedom this is not your candidate in the next election and Biden is.

I really don't understand why you are including this. I do not like Trump. I think his success is both over-rated and under-rated: Over-rated because Trump hasn't accomplished anything as a real estate magnate that's truly exceptional, under-rated because those on the left think running a business is a cake-walk money operation and imagine they could do better (they can't: fools and their money are soon parted, and Trump still has a fuck ton of money).

I also don't think Trump is a libertarian, but Trump being in office and voting for Republicans more broadly protects my liberty more than Joe Biden and Democrats, who are currently using their social and economic power to try to eliminate views they don't like, have explicitly stated that they no longer agree with the "even Nazis should be allowed to protest because the 1st Amendment," and are openly stating that they want to rig every single US political institution from gerry-mandered districts to packing the Court to admitting new states in order to get their policies passed. Meanwhile they are increasingly radicalizing, both along policy and activist dimensions, with their most passionate activists regularly harassing random residents in their homes, wheeling gulliotines through neighborhoods, vaguely and openly threatening to burn down gentrified neighborhoods and white suburbs, while their local leaders do basically nothing besides posture and allow their police departments to be defunded.

While I sympathize with concerns about Trump and do not really blame anyone for not wanting to vote for him, and I absolutely sympathize with people who think policy should be something beyond "tax cuts forever!," I am not voting for a Democrat.

[Albany Rifles]

Asty, you named 3 events that had nothing to do with legislative paralysis.

Gerrymandering and pork barrel are at the very heart of the legislation procerss.

[DOR]

Three times in my life presidential candidates have colluded with the enemy for the purpose of winning the election. Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and Donald Trump.

Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.
---Auric Goldfinger

[TopHatter]

Looks like a dog that hasn't barked, with an insistence that we dig up half of Montana because obviously that means the dog must have been killed to prevent it from barking. We have uncovered a hell of a lot that doesn't match the pattern described without broad suppositions and speculation.

A dog that hasn't barked but a bipartisan, Republican-led committee that concluded loud and clear:

"These and other revelations in the report suffice to establish that Donald Trump poses a counterintelligence threat to the United States, no less because he is the President of the United States..."

Also, when we haven't been able to dig up a single shovelful of Montana's financial records (one of the cardinal tenets of counterintelligence being "Follow The Money") because of Presidential obstruction, I'd say we've got a minor gap in our investigation that's....the size of Montana.

And what we have uncovered is a President that wouldn't be able to pass even the lowest of background checks were he merely some slob from New York, that's up to his neck with Russians.

Good thing he doesn't have access to the most tightly held secrets that this nation possesses...

Oh. Right. Well that's awkward....

While I sympathize with concerns about Trump and do not really blame anyone for not wanting to vote for him, and I absolutely sympathize with people who think policy should be something beyond "tax cuts forever!," I am not voting for a Democrat.

I'll vote for a Democrat before I vote for a counterintelligence threat to the United States, but you do you.