The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

[Albany Rifles]

Oh, and those swarms of ANTIFA activists over the last few weeks?

Not so much....

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/87327...ht-over-unrest

[astralis]

it's not an issue of the MRAP "looking scary".

it's an issue of how police view the people they're supposed to be "serving and protecting". if all you have is a hammer...

[Oracle]

No, those were NOT legal nor registered firearms.

And the only people killed were the 2 robbers.

I would like to see basic de-militarization.

IE police departments should not be sporting freakin' armored personnel carriers.

donating surplus military equipment to police departments was a disaster and a terrible idea. cops aren't soldiers, SWAT teams should be limited in size and number to major metropolitan areas.

moreover the little stunt that Barr pulled in DC was disturbing as hell: use of Bureau of Prison riot squads with no identifiable insignia to intimidate protesters was messed up beyond belief.

I full endorse Asty's post. This is how it should be. If well armed citizens are looting or rioting, call in the SWAT team. Police should focus only on policing, let SWAT teams do the fire-fighting. OTOH, small SWAT teams in non-metros can also help in hostage situations etc. Police should be given a stick and a pistol. It's more than enough to intimidate people.

Asty, is institutional racism only against blacks, or it is well entrenched against other ethnic minorities too?

[GVChamp]

it's not an issue of the MRAP "looking scary".

it's an issue of how police view the people they're supposed to be "serving and protecting". if all you have is a hammer...

I don't see the direct causation, other than "look scary"="must be villains", and I think this perfectly places the cart before the horse. Police have been roughing up people prior to the existence of this program, including whole crowds of people. If the governor feels like the police can't handle it, they will just send in the National Guard or the Army/Marines to police. Modern SWAT and riot specifically evolved because the police wanted to do crowd control and couldn't do it effectively in the 60s. They were created to fill the need, they did not come into existence and then police started behaving badly.

To Oracle's point, the police are more than willing to beat the crap out of protestors with just billy clubs if that's all you are going to give them. Take away those and they'll pick up rocks instead. The existence of a surplus military program does not drive this.

[Officer of Engineers]

I full endorse Asty's post. This is how it should be. If well armed citizens are looting or rioting, call in the SWAT team. Police should focus only on policing, let SWAT teams do the fire-fighting. OTOH, small SWAT teams in non-metros can also help in hostage situations etc. Police should be given a stick and a pistol. It's more than enough to intimidate people.

The US is not India and should not be treated as India. American citizens are too well armed. They have more firearms than the Indian Army and the Pakistani Army combined.

I will say this much. If all you have is a stick and you come at me, be prepared for a fight. That uniform ain't a friggin shield.

Asty, is institutional racism only against blacks, or it is well entrenched against other ethnic minorities too?

Oh for Pete sakes, stop being obtuse. It was Blacks against Koreans during the LA Riots. There were firefights between the two groups. Get rid of the cops and they will go after each other.

[Officer of Engineers]

I just read the article and the main thrust throughout the article dealt with the altright. Only mentioned antifa in two paragraphs and in open carry states. Being open carry what opposition protestor would go unprotected knowing there would be heavily armed white alt-right members. No sense going to a gun fight in Texas with a knife. I know a liberal black colleague in Texas who is heavily armed in his professional office no less. Texas is a strange state still.

Antifa has armed groups in 30 states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt

[astralis]

GVChamp,

Police have been roughing up people prior to the existence of this program, including whole crowds of people. If the governor feels like the police can't handle it, they will just send in the National Guard or the Army/Marines to police. Modern SWAT and riot specifically evolved because the police wanted to do crowd control and couldn't do it effectively in the 60s. They were created to fill the need, they did not come into existence and then police started behaving badly.

sure, have modern SWAT and riot control.

but militarization of the police forces didn't come because of the 1960s protests. it was because of the military surplus program of the late 90s, followed by the post 9-11 security funding and the enormous surplus of GWOT military usage.

moreover, de-militarization often means -more effective- policing, not less. many of the post-Ferguson reforms involved taking cops out of cruisers and walking the beat instead, to build community trust. walk a neighborhood instead of driving through it, guns ready to rock and roll. that's why many police departments are GIVING UP the MRAPs and the APCs.

this should be a national practice.

[astralis]

oracle,

Asty, is institutional racism only against blacks, or it is well entrenched against other ethnic minorities too?

it's structured differently. Asians usually get the "model minority" badge stuck on them, which is used as a club against other minorities such as blacks.

of course, that belief doesn't help them get promotions past mid-level management, ie the bamboo ceiling. or prevent them from being episodic victims of hate crimes, like the spate of anti-Asian-American racism following COVID.

by the way, the Asian-American realization of this inequity is what has really changed over the last 30 years. OoE mentions the LA/Rodney King riots, where you did have Korean shopowners fighting blacks, etc.

you don't see that at ALL now in this round of protests, in part due to generational shifts-- the second generation better understands the implicit institutional racism.

[TopHatter]

The Republican National Convention's Move to Jacksonville Has Strong Clusterfuck Elements

For one thing, there aren't enough hotel rooms.

In 2005, I went to Jacksonville to cover Super Bowl XXXIX between the New England Patriots and the Carolina Panthers. The people were very nice; I actually got to talk to Leonard Skinner, the former gym teacher—at Robert E. Lee H.S., no less—after whom some of his former students named their band. The city, alas, was completely overwhelmed by the event. Cabs were as rare as whooping cranes, and this was before ride-sharing took off. I think there are still several lost-soul sportswriters waiting on street corners for taxis that never came. And there were not nearly enough hotel rooms, so the organizers put people on yachts and cruise ships docked along the waterfront.

And doesn’t that sound like just the ticket during a pandemic: stuffing people at a mass gathering onto the seagoing Petri dishes that are America’s cruise lines. The Republican Party seems to think so. From the New York Times:

Republicans expect to move their national convention from Charlotte, N.C., to Jacksonville, Fla., a shift planned after President Trump told officials in North Carolina that he did not want to use social distancing measures aimed at halting the spread of the coronavirus, according to three senior Republicans. The decision could change, the Republicans cautioned, but as of now, officials are on track to announce the new location as early as Thursday.

Typically for this administration*, the move has a strong cluster of fck at its center. The real business of the convention—the actual news like, say, selling out the party platform on Ukraine—will still take place in Charlotte, but the balloons and bloviating will be staged in Jacksonville. This has the added benefit of making the convention harder for those pesky reporters to cover.

Officials have said some party business will still be conducted in North Carolina, even with the move, but that the president’s nomination will be celebrated at the new site. Whether any additional business is conducted there remains to be seen.

After three years of this, the term “additional business” fills me with the same existential dread experienced by anyone in Jacksonville who’s trying to get a cab back to their stateroom on the HazMat Deck of the SS Granulocyte. I can’t wait.
__________

Welp, been nice knowing you fellows.

This is going to be complete dumpster fire....complete with dumpster fires.

[Double Edge]

Not where it happens....I've seen photos from around the world, including India.

Where is it acknowledged safe practice?

I mean its legal in Minneapolis.

Safe practice ? not safe

Article says people were hurt but does not detail the injuries or extent.

I did see a clip few days ago of a cop doing it here. Apparently the person was not wearing a mask and assaulted the cop when he mentioned it.

[Oracle]

To Oracle's point, the police are more than willing to beat the crap out of protestors with just billy clubs if that's all you are going to give them. Take away those and they'll pick up rocks instead. The existence of a surplus military program does not drive this.

I think you are correct on this. So, reforms it is then. But a basic demilitarization is also needed for people to get their confidence back in the police.

The US is not India and should not be treated as India. American citizens are too well armed. They have more firearms than the Indian Army and the Pakistani Army combined.

I will say this much. If all you have is a stick and you come at me, be prepared for a fight. That uniform ain't a friggin shield.

Gun rights are a problem then, and I have seen liberal people on this board not wanting to give it up. So it stays.

Old man, I am black belt in cooking, among other skills.

Oh for Pete sakes, stop being obtuse. It was Blacks against Koreans during the LA Riots. There were firefights between the two groups. Get rid of the cops and they will go after each other.

You did not get my point. I wanted to know if institutional racism exist against other ethnic minorities. Honestly, I do not give much credence to what's going on in US, we have the same issues here, more or less. Democracy means opposing voices.

[Officer of Engineers]

I think you are correct on this. So, reforms it is then. But a basic demilitarization is also needed for people to get their confidence back in the police.

All that means is that criminals will always outgun the police - NOT a good thing.

Old man, I am black belt in cooking, among other skills.

Pots and pans are perfectly good weapons against a stick. Hell, even the kitchen sink will break that stick in half.

You did not get my point. I wanted to know if institutional racism exist against other ethnic minorities. Honestly, I do not give much credence to what's going on in US, we have the same issues here, more or less. Democracy means opposing voices.

No, it is NOT institutionalized. The numbers alone says that much. We have an extremely few but very high profile cases that makes it seem so but again, 80% of crimes committed on blacks are done by blacks. Who do you think the police is going to concentrate on for those 80%? Whites? That is not to say that there are no racial problems but there is no way for anyone NOT to concentrate on blacks for those 80% crimes.

Blacks still call the police and the police still show up. If it were institutionalized, the police would cordone off the area and leave the blacks to themselves. Nothings says institution more than doing nothing.

[Double Edge]

I ran across this encounter. Now imagine if it had been a black couple here instead of this senior white couple in the classic car. In my Cougar Club we have about 18 blacks members with their classic Cougars driving.

This happened in Nevada. It really is shocking to see the treatment. Senior citizens must be violent in that state : D

I don't see white or black here unlike some but i do see people being shoved around for no good reason. I think its part of the training, they subdue you first whatever way possible as it reduces the threat to them and they do face that on a daily basis.

[Firestorm]

GVChamp,



sure, have modern SWAT and riot control.

The problem is police culture, not just who is armed with what and what moniker is used for that group. SWAT teams are still police and come from the same pool of cops. There was an incident a few years back where a heavily armed SWAT team broke into a house (based off of faulty intel) searching for a drug dealer and threw a flashbang into a room where a woman and her baby were sleeping (they were black. what a surprise!). The flashbang ended up in the baby's crib...badly injuring him.

The problem is their culture and training. If you give military style training to cops (many of whom are clearly racist or have implicit racial bias) and send them to make drug busts into people's homes, good luck getting any better outcomes regardless of what you call those cops. Police departments across America are being trained by dangerous lunatics like Dave Grossman (google him, he calls his theory "killology". no kidding ) who are basically turning them into a counter insurgency/counter terrorist force to be used against American citizens. Grossman for example literally teaches cops during training that they are predators, in so many words. With training like that, you could arm the entire SWAT team with kitchen knives and still end up with dead or injured innocent civilians. Black, more often than not. The riot control teams are no better as is evident from the dozens of videos from the latest protests where cops have been videoed beating up or macing people who had their hands up, throwing them to the ground and generally behave like an occupying force in a foreign country.

[Double Edge]

Reform Colonel, reform. Reform & de-arm. US police scares me from this far. I have had interactions with Met Police in UK. They were thorough professional, and very decent, and I am brown.

No chance of de-arming since US allows people arms.

US police are scary period but I get the impression its them that is the more afraid. Keep this in mind and it goes better.

They are quite aggressive in their approach which stands out in stark contrast to what we're used to. Though my experiences with NYPD have been limited the difference with the UK was clear. Brit cop is more cunning, American more in your face.

I learnt to remain put and let them approach rather than going up to them as that is perceived as being aggrerssive and they likely will pull their guns out at you then. Another point to remember in the US. Let's call it a cultural difference : )

I remember once i was waiting for friends in Flushing to see the final of the US open. My friends were arriving by train with tickets. So i was hanging out outside the stadium when a cop approached me thinking i was a tout. After a minute he walked off and his tone completely changed from when he approached me to when he left. The other thing i find is important is that they can see your hands at all times. Palms facing them is even better.

The way they behave you'd think they were dealing with hardened criminals all the time so they treat every one like that. Take away your dignity.

This is topic Z likes, he would have a lot to say on the subject. If he would show up.

We talk about not having enough cops in our country, in the US with enough to go around he thinks they are out to get you. As if they have to justify their presence.

Cops are a cost centre, they do not generate profit for the city.