Originally posted by WABs_OOE
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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus
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Originally posted by citanon View PostHow would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB."Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus
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Originally posted by antimony View PostUsain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scho...2010–12)
Or hammer:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/12...francisco.html
Or random tools found around the house:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WodNK5-IbZ8
Or with trucks:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack
In fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...017161348.html
Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:
Before we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to identify and actually address problems with the humans wielding them?
In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G00T7
A mechanism was in place to take this guys guns away and monitor him. It was activated by a tipster. No action was taken by the FBI.
The school officials knew about the threat. The community knew about the threat. The guy was expelled because of the threat he posed. Yet no one informed local law enforcement.
The one phone call that could have stopped this guy happened and yet the FBI dropped the ball. The second phone call to local police could have stopped this bit it never happened despite dozens of hundreds knowing about the threat.
The FBI failed, the school failed, and the community failed.
At the same time we saw in Washington State what happens when a family member and the community takes proactive action:
https://www.thecut.com/2018/02/grand...-shooting.html
American media loves to externalize the threat when it comes to violence. If we can blame guns instead of humans we feel better and the problem feels more tractable. In the wake of tragedy we like to diffuse responsibility by pointing at big amorphous impersonal strawmen instead of looking too closely at what happened in an already traumatized community.
But if we want to reduce the actual threat, we have to take a painful look within, examine the lessons learned and get serious about detection and prevention.Last edited by citanon; 16 Feb 18,, 23:01.
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Unfortunately, FBI is too busy prioritizing using an inordinate amount of money, manpower, and resources in its never-ending quest for patsies to set up in counter-terrorism "stings", a side effect of which is that stuff like this slips through the cracks."Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
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Originally posted by Double Edge View PostNo, it does not even happen there. What took place here does not occur anywhere in the world. A high school kid shooting up his school.
Think of Beslan or Peshawar those were militants attacking a school. That you don't get in the US and likely never will
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Originally posted by citanon View PostA random dude picking up a kitchen knife could cause mass casualties:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scho...2010–12)
Originally posted by citanon View Post
Originally posted by citanon View Post
Originally posted by citanon View Post
Originally posted by citanon View PostIn fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...017161348.html
Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:
Originally posted by citanon View PostBefore we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to actually address problems with the humans wielding them?
In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1G00T7
Let the FBI follow up every random joke and schoolyard threat to its logical place, and every broken child in every foster or mental home and bring them to their logical destination, the high security prison. But lets not do anyting about background checks.
Let us also conveniently ignore the fact that Trump did away with a rule that would have given the NICS system access to mental health records and would therefore have stopped many people with mental health issues from bying guns.
Also lets look at the statistics of your "mass murder", which I assumed you spent time in pulling together : 5+ 17 + 25. How many gun deaths happened in 2018 alone?"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus
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I do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.
Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.
Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.
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it's true that humans can mass murder with knives and with molotov cocktails or whatever is most convenient.
it just turns out that in the US, mass murderers tend to pick the AR-15 because it is most convenient, easily gotten, and quite effective with little training.
there's a reason why mass killings happen so frequently in the US compared to elsewhere.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by JCT View PostI do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.
Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.
Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.
A lot of details to work through but maybe worth it if a community was willing.
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Originally posted by antimony View PostUsain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.
Originally posted by antimony View PostAgain, wrong example. Operating a gun is comparatively far easier and safer compared to a rudimentary and self-concocted explosive device. It is highly possible that any such device blows up in the face of the perp (something that I am A-ok with). I used to make firecrackers (more stable than a lighted wick in a bottle of petrol) for Diwali, and quite a few of our creations blew up unexpectedly. My friends mom suffered serious hand burns from using one of our home made creations. So, not cutting it.
I like Kato's suggestion. All classrooms have firedoors. They can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Locked and the AR-15 ain't getting through to do harm. What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Feb 18,, 00:06.Chimo
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OK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Originally posted by citanon View PostHow would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.
The quicker the noise can be identified, the more response time to lock doors get kids out.
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Originally posted by astralis View PostOK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?
And this goes to my point. You are all looking at the symptons, not the disease. Getting rid of firearms would not have cured this kid of his murder rage. He was just too stupid to find something more effective.
AK47s were ineffective against US troops and the insurgents switched something else that was effective and their associated cool factor rose. Getting rid of automatic firearms would only increase the cool factor of other lethal means, not stop the desire to murder.
Edit: I will give you a big one. 11 September.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Feb 18,, 00:54.Chimo
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