2017 American Political Scene

[Mihais]

Mihais,

OK, so what is it that makes you think I'm some fellow traveler with the alt-left? It's about as solidly supported as your other claims, which is to say not at all.

The people and groups I listed committed murder. They didn't get on that list for slugging someone.

1. Where did I stated you are part of that?
2.The thing started with my statement that political violence is a lefty thing and later gave some characteristics the term to which I added persecution and oppression as related,but still different notions.You gave a list of folks that are not relevant politically and who comitted murder.Your point is not relevant,but you want me to provide you a list of irrelevant things to our debate.
3.What I think of your politics is one thing,but you don't quite understand it when your logical fallacies are turned against you.Your defense for the leftist peacefulness is invoking a matter outside the subject.Playing by your rules,however logically flawed,you still lose.Because if you mix all sorts of right wing movements with criminals it is you who thinks ''they're all the same''.I ''apparently think'' nothing,I just pointed you how flawed your argument was and gave an example of how it can be turned against you.
4.I don't give a damn about SPLC and the likes.They used the same tactic as you here,of extrapolating and conflating irrelevant issues.Their conclusions cannot be but erroneous.Giving such group the power and influence they currently posses is nothing but part of an effort to oppress people and suppress their rights.
5. You stood silent when I raised serious issues,like obstruction of free speech,right of gathering and manifesting,persecution.Yes,those are for your political ennemies,but still do you support them?

[Mihais]

First Trump is an idiot and has been played by Moscow if nothing else. Second they specifically altered the GOP policy at the Republican National Convention (at which Kislyak was a guest); "providing lethal defensive weapons [to Ukraine]" was amended "providing appropriate assistance". This was Trump - nobody else. Given all the contacts his 'advisers' had with Moscow, the offer of dirt on Clinton (aka 'adoption issue talks'), the fact that there were that many Moscow linked people in the Trump campaign and the fact that Trump was at the time actively pursuing building hotel in Moscow (as has recently come out, though Peskov denies he replied to Cohen's letter) they made it very difficult for Trump NOT to accept their enticements.

This was an intelligence op all the way. I suspect you know as well as I just who makes an ideal target for such ops; greedy egotists with a public profile who have no common (or moral sense) and our just out for themselves. Putin's flattery was geared to this and Trump was clearly courting it (take his tweet from the Miss Universe do about Putin becoming his new "best friend"). Trump was an ideal target - Yanukovych and Orban were co-opted in much the same way. Whether Trump knowingly and willingly accepted these enticements doesn't matter - if he didn't see it for what it was he was an idiot but perhaps all his Moscow linked 'advisors' told him that "hey they are just really generous guys in Moscow". Point is he is deeply compromised especially when he kept denying any contacts of links to Moscow. Suppose Moscow had threatened to reveal the meeting with Trump Jnr? What is public knowledge is less harmful than what is hidden which makes all the denials which have subsequently proved to be lies harmful and stupid... unless he did willingly do a deal and is trying to hide the deeper crime of betrayal. There is now pretty good prima facie evidence that he is trying to cover up something - sacking Comey was about the Muscovite inquiry as the idiot himself admitted so it is obstruction in itself. Now it appears he may try to pardon anyone that Mueller goes after, perhaps including himself or his family!

I do not care if he right wing or left wing; he is a traitor and useless at this game. He has to go. Bush was a fool though in general a well meaning one who got landed with a catastrophe - he looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul - how sweet. He got fooled; there is no soul, there is a KGB calculator. Obama was an idiot; didn't trust the Muscovite despot but thought he could do a deal, didn't end so well for Syria or Ukraine. Both were better than a deeply compromised traitor.

Seems you missed Mattis at the parade in Kiev 10 days ago.Things change and evolve.

That it was a Russian intel op I have no doubt.That is the game.If its objective was to have a Russian puppet at the WH,it has failed for reasons every intel operative can tell you.If that was a purpose for the SVR,than it's a rotten organization for acting such foolishly.

I suspect its purpose was more modest,more realistic and more successful,even if only partially.However,the very nature of the operation betrays a fundamental Russian weakness.
Our Euro partners may still grasp a Russian victory from the jaws of abject failure.

[DOR]

pps What do you consider insulting?

“First of all, you and your pal don't quite understand what you're talking about.”

“Second,I love it when you go over the top. Yeah,baby, please tell me more about Stormfront murders. Perhaps you could cite their policy of murder. Alas,you cannot. Reason 1-it was inexistent. Reason 2-AQ did not managed to change the Internet. ISIS did not. But lefty activists finally did it. You shut down sites.”

“But since you think that anonymous association means murderous politics, I am more than glad to associate you and your pals with the 100 millions victims of Leftist efforts to make the world a such good place.”

“As for ''yours'', that is the entire left spectrum, of which Communism is part of. Is playing the game by your rules, which in this case means guilt by association. The list you ask for in this case would really be something monumental in size.”

Then, there's the rest--

“You are correct that lefty killers of the last 30 years are 4 times fewer than rightist killers. But that's not what we're talking about.”

Um, yeah, it is. It is exactly what we are talking about.
So, where’s that list you promised?

[Mihais]

No,dude,we're not talking about common criminals.If you wanna talk about whose electorate is commiting crimes,say so.But that does not fit any criteria for actual political violence.

And you confuse me.Are you a lefty or not?All your posting history sounded like lefty activism to me.If you aren't,my apologies.But if you are,I haven't heard you express an opinion about abuses.Perhaps you personally did nothing.OK,you're an innocent bystander.But do you endorse those acts commited by groups of activists in the name of the ideology you SEEM to support?

Btw,the apologize does not extend to my assertion of you not having an idea what you're talking about.You REALLY mix political violence with ''individual'' violence.Q.E.D

[snapper]

That it was a Russian intel op I have no doubt.That is the game.If its objective was to have a Russian puppet at the WH,it has failed for reasons every intel operative can tell you.If that was a purpose for the SVR,than it's a rotten organization for acting such foolishly.

So changing the GOP policy at the convention meant nothing? Trump would have ended US sanctions on Moscow if Congress had not stepped in to make it more difficult for him to do so. They have a deeply compromised amateur in the Whitehouse who has never said a bad word about Uncle Vova but only apologises and compliments him. If I had 10 złoty (PLN) for every lie about "no contacts with Moscow" they have told I could buy a small car or something. They are so clearly compromised and trying to cover it up that Moscow must be laughing all the way. Failed? Really? When is the US going to get 'tired of winning'? There will be no winning for the US or the 'west' under Trump because that is not what concerns him. He is entirely concerned in benefiting himself.

Our Euro partners may still grasp a Russian victory from the jaws of abject failure.

Doubt the Frogs or the Krauts are going to go easy on Moscow after the attacks on their elections. The Brits sadly are sidetracked but are not about to let Moscow off any hook. Or do you mean Orban?

[Mihais]

You still get bogged down in intricacies invalid by now.And some that were reasonably certain of being rejected at the time.
The Russian failure is in a sense a failure of Trump's base.His foreign policy is much more involved and aggressive than his isolationist base would prefer.And wrt A-stan,is in an unfortunate way.
OK,he's an idiot as you say(I don't think so,but it's not relevant).Did he acted in such a way that put us at risk?NO.Not so far.

As for insults to Volodya,I prefer a HIMARS Bde and 1000 smart missiles and a Patriot Bde,thank you very much.Insulting people is weakness.Raw power makes you less interested in trivial things.


Russians can get helped or hindered at multiple levels,sanctions being only one of them.And not really the most important.Donald was perfectly correct at Warsaw about the inherent dangers being bred at WE breast.Like the tendency of the West to push the East out for its ideological and moronic bureaucratic reasons.That would not be catastrophic wrt EE security as long we're heavily armed and have a modicum of American backup,but it would still be a tremendous victory for Russia.

[snapper]

You still get bogged down in intricacies invalid by now.And some that were reasonably certain of being rejected at the time.

I am not sure that Trump's collaboration with Moscow and the motives he had for doing so, to influence the US election is "invalid". The guy is in hock to Moscow. You say you are sure it was a Muscovite op; I agree, bleeding obvious to me. Did Trump realise he was the target of Muscovite operations? If not then he doesn't belong in the White House. If he did not - though even my nephew would question such offers and acts of Muscovite 'generosity' - then he colluded/collaborated with them and is a traitor.

The Russian failure is in a sense a failure of Trump's base.His foreign policy is much more involved and aggressive than his isolationist base would prefer.And wrt A-stan,is in an unfortunate way.

You mean warning the Muscovites he was going to bomb an airfield in Syria that was in use again the next day? Should I be tired of winning after that?

OK,he's an idiot as you say(I don't think so,but it's not relevant).Did he acted in such a way that put us at risk?NO.Not so far.

I bet Mossad were delighted he endangered one of their people in Syria by telling the Muscovites all about it. You think the Brits and other Five Eyes partners trust him?

As for insults to Volodya,I prefer a HIMARS Bde and 1000 smart missiles and a Patriot Bde,thank you very much.Insulting people is weakness.Raw power makes you less interested in trivial things.

None of that was Trump's decision - it was all agreed before.

Russians can get helped or hindered at multiple levels,sanctions being only one of them.And not really the most important.Donald was perfectly correct at Warsaw about the inherent dangers being bred at WE breast.Like the tendency of the West to push the East out for its ideological and moronic bureaucratic reasons.That would not be catastrophic wrt EE security as long we're heavily armed and have a modicum of American backup,but it would still be a tremendous victory for Russia.

The sooner we get started on our own independent nuclear deterrent the better.

[Mihais]

1.From a certain level,everything is connected to intel ops.Do you think there is one interested party in this world not trying to get intel and try to manipulate things in its favor?SVR is no less malevolent per se than the Chinese,the Taiwanese,the Israeli or the French.Assuming the SVR offered me dynamite to hit my opponents.I'd take it,no questions asked.For the simple reason that once in power,they lose every control over me.Control over agents is basic stuff.Ok,assume you had them in your pocket,they start giving you intel.Control never stops.Because enemy CI may interfere.The agent may have lost the will to play the game.Etc...
Classic example:Lenin.He used German money to start chaos in Russia.He then even signed Brest Litovsk.Great victory it seems.Yet he was no longer a German agent from the moment he got a better position.An agent is by definition a subordinate.Once you are supreme ruler over an independent entity you are out of the game.
Less known example:Romanian commies.Absolute Soviet puppets.Yet once they tasted power and smelled the posibilities of freedom from Russian interference they started waving the red yellow and blue with vigor.
2.Yes,I'd warn the Russians for an act done by the Syrians and then bomb the latter.I'd send a message not to cross a line and I would not escalate a war with the other fellow that can wipe the life on the planet.Don't like it,fine,but the stakes are higher than personal dislikes.

3.Let's not worry about Mossad.
4.Some were,some weren't.In our case,the big things started to be considered after Trump started to gain electoral momentum and came to being seriously considered after he gained power.Poland was more coherent and more advanced as well as stronger negociator(will see how well it works on certain issues).But Poland without us is useless and so we are without Poland.Ukraine,God bless her,will come in play more fully in due time.

5.Nuke will be fine in theory,but it will be an American effort as well.One who thinks it's possible without them is delusional.And it will happen in dire circumstances that better remain theoretical.Yeah,we have the tech.But diplomatic and political backing is needed.Otherwise you just invite a preventive Russian strike.

[snapper]

Nikita Isaev, Director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics on Muscovite TV yesterday:

"Let's hit Trump with our Kompromat!" Host: "Do we have it?" — "Of course we have it!"

[Mihais]

Good Lord,Sara,Russian TV only says how great Kamaz,Putin and intel agencies are.I don't believe a damn about what they say.Is internal audience.

Let me state it again.The Russians have nothing.Everything they had was gone,hypothetically, the moment Trump became Pres.Is invalid.Obsolete.And the Americans,if they are not complete idiots,will support Trump in this,otherwise is fvcking treason on the part of the American intel community.Trump,no matter how,is the elected POTUS,the will of the American people before any outside influence.

And the US agencies have to support Trump,otherwise they are completely discredited.THAT will be more harmful than any Russian kompromat,which cannot be but rubbish compare to the stakes.What can they say?That Trump gave them a bribe to speed red tape wrt his hotel in Moscow?That Trump had sex with models?

The Russians can,of course,try this game,but the stake will not be Trump himself,but to foment internal chaos in US.By encouraging Dems to intensify actions against Trump the Traitor.Which will lead to counter-reactions from his supporters.That is classical influence ops,which basically means riding an existing wave of tension and amplify it.The US will thus be less prone to intervention abroad.It will be a variant of what they did 30-40 -50 years ago,when they encouraged protests and strife of whatever sort occurred in US and WE.The new element will be encouraging both sides,the left and the right to fight for fighting's sake.

Again,this tension is a natural evolution of said societies.It will happen regardless of outside influence,that can only speed it or intensify it.Our interest is to delay it as long as possible,if we can,and prepare as much as we can to bleed any invader white.

[DOR]

No,dude,we're not talking about common criminals.If you wanna talk about whose electorate is commiting crimes,say so.But that does not fit any criteria for actual political violence.

And you confuse me.Are you a lefty or not?All your posting history sounded like lefty activism to me.If you aren't,my apologies.But if you are,I haven't heard you express an opinion about abuses.Perhaps you personally did nothing.OK,you're an innocent bystander.But do you endorse those acts commited by groups of activists in the name of the ideology you SEEM to support?

Btw,the apologize does not extend to my assertion of you not having an idea what you're talking about.You REALLY mix political violence with ''individual'' violence.Q.E.D

Ah.
The penny drops
I get it now.

Right-winger kills someone because of their race / religion / profession: murder.
But, if a lefty does it, then its political terrorism.

Got it.

[Mihais]

Dude,BF wondered about your patience.Man,he's so wrong(no news here,IMO).He should have wondered about mine.

Political terrorism =/= political violence.I accused the left of violence and oppression.Not terrorism,of which neither spectrum is guilty.
And no,hombre,I am not trying to dupe you to admit any ''guilt''.

Since somewhat abstract things wrt subject seem to be not you forte,I'll ask it more simple.Do you agree with the right of anyone to march peacefully on the streets?Do you agree with their right to speak freely in the media or the internet?Do you believe it is fair to be fired from your job because of your political views?

[DOR]

Do you agree with the right of anyone to march peacefully on the streets?

Nope. We have laws, licenses and regulations on how to behave in public. If you set out to break them, then no, you are not protected under my personal perspective.

Do you agree with their right to speak freely in the media or the internet?

Nope. Try shouting “fire” in a crowded theater – or the media / internet equivalent – and see how quickly someone points out that we have laws, licenses and regulations on how to behave in public.

Do you believe it is fair to be fired from your job because of your political views?

Nope. But, I also believe that employers have the right to require their employees to do nothing that will bring the company into disrepute.

My turn.

Do you believe choosing a location where people are MOST likely to be opposed to your hate speech is good citizenship?

Do you believe intentionally provoking others into emotional reactions to your hate speech is good citizenship?

Do you think hate speech should be treated as any other kind of speech?

[Mihais]

Yes to all 3.This is what freedom and respect for the others mean.Don't like what some chaps are saying,go somewhere else and protest about it.And especially,don't vote them.Vote the ones you like.

And all you did was obfuscating.We are talking about political discourse and speech,not shouting ''fire''.And you are well aware of that.We are also talking about political rallies.

According to your logic is perfectly normal for homos to be attacked when they rally.Afterall,they cause emotional distress to others,religious people.Replace ''homos'' with any group imaginable.Some people don't like X.Bam!!Take that,mother....r!

Let's restate.
Do you think a legally approved rally has to go on without being attacked?
Generally speaking,do you think any sort of peaceful political gathering should not be attacked?
Do you believe that political free speech must not be infringed?
Do you think people should express their displeasure by violence,not ballots?

[snapper]

Good Lord,Sara,Russian TV only says how great Kamaz,Putin and intel agencies are.I don't believe a damn about what they say.Is internal audience.

I wish...

Let me state it again.The Russians have nothing.Everything they had was gone,hypothetically, the moment Trump became Pres.Is invalid.Obsolete.And the Americans,if they are not complete idiots,will support Trump in this,otherwise is fvcking treason on the part of the American intel community.Trump,no matter how,is the elected POTUS,the will of the American people before any outside influence.

Clearly the idiot you are attempting to defend does not think so, otherwise why all the lies, firing Comey in misguided attempts to hide his links with Moscow.

And the US agencies have to support Trump,otherwise they are completely discredited.THAT will be more harmful than any Russian kompromat,which cannot be but rubbish compare to the stakes.What can they say?That Trump gave them a bribe to speed red tape wrt his hotel in Moscow?That Trump had sex with models?

I believe the agencies take an oath to uphold the Constitution in the US, not the current idiot in the White House.

The Russians can,of course,try this game,but the stake will not be Trump himself,but to foment internal chaos in US.By encouraging Dems to intensify actions against Trump the Traitor.Which will lead to counter-reactions from his supporters.That is classical influence ops,which basically means riding an existing wave of tension and amplify it.The US will thus be less prone to intervention abroad.It will be a variant of what they did 30-40 -50 years ago,when they encouraged protests and strife of whatever sort occurred in US and WE.The new element will be encouraging both sides,the left and the right to fight for fighting's sake.

And getting a deeply compromised President elected did not help such an ambition? The guy is a traitor. There are no excuses for treason. You want to sort things out? Get rid of the traitors first.

Again,this tension is a natural evolution of said societies.It will happen regardless of outside influence,that can only speed it or intensify it.Our interest is to delay it as long as possible,if we can,and prepare as much as we can to bleed any invader white.

I do not accept the inevitability of civil conflict in Western societies.