Southern Border Developments

[GSpot]

Care to qualify that statement? Can you show me just how there's a net benefit to our economy?

I think it would be pretty hard to show that immigration creates a net gain or net loss to our economy as a whole- theres just too much to take into account. But that doesnt mean I disagree with the gist of Goatboy's statement. There are definite benefits to having a plentiful and cheap labor force present in the U.S., and we need to modify our border security programs in order to capitalize off of the benefits that do exist. That means letting in the immigrants that contribute. So yeah, cheap labor is a boon for our economy, and razorwire and landmines are not.

[Goatboy]

Care to qualify that statement? Can you show me just how there's a net benefit to our economy?

Without going into great detail -- quoting Adam Smith, Hayak, even Bush etc, laissez faire economics, the perils of protectionism and so on, I'll give you "a" benefit: The bundle of $20 bills you saved last month in grocery bills since you aren't being forced to subsidize Americans who will only pick lettuce for $12 an hour, that is, if there's enough American citizens who'd be willing to pick lettuce in the first place.

[Goatboy]

We could declare large swaths of of our frontiers special military reservations with multi lingual signs alerting passers by that tresspassers will be shot and that ongoing live fire mining exercises are held in the area.

Trespassers shot? Plant a much greater number of mines than currently exist in Angola, and probably Iraq too? Live fire exercises? I think the punishment for sneaking across the border to work (with the intention of bringing some money back home to help out with the family at home) seems perhaps a little severe?

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" doesn't exactly sound like "shoot Mexicans on sight" to me. I don't want illegal immigrants staying permanently, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to KILL them. Are we to be the only Democratic industrialized nation which has such a policy?

Jeesuz man, do you really think border patrol agents would be willing to shoot some young male and female Mexican couple holding hands crossing some desolate Arizona mountain zone? Maybe you think it's fun to think of a young Mexican woman crossing the border illegally who, instead of cleaning bathrooms, picking strawberries etc, she's now a bloody pile of meat, covered in bullet holes. Could you live with that? Would you want to know anyone personally who could live with that?

[Lars]

Without going into great detail -- quoting Adam Smith, Hayak, even Bush etc, laissez faire economics, the perils of protectionism and so on, I'll give you "a" benefit: The bundle of $20 bills you saved last month in grocery bills since you aren't being forced to subsidize Americans who will only pick lettuce for $12 an hour, that is, if there's enough American citizens who'd be willing to pick lettuce in the first place.

Then again, $1 lettuce pickers may be delaying the invention of the $2 lettuce picking machine.

Hey, worked with cotton.

[Wooglin]

Without going into great detail -- quoting Adam Smith, Hayak, even Bush etc, laissez faire economics, the perils of protectionism and so on, I'll give you "a" benefit: The bundle of $20 bills you saved last month in grocery bills since you aren't being forced to subsidize Americans who will only pick lettuce for $12 an hour, that is, if there's enough American citizens who'd be willing to pick lettuce in the first place.

Not being forced to subsidize???

Unfortunately, cheap lettuce doesn't cover the roughly $70 billion taxpayers dole out to pay for illegals medical, education, housing subsidies, etc. There's a bigger picture here you seem to not want to see.

We are already subsidizing it, and taking staggering losses every year.

[Bill]

Without going into great detail -- quoting Adam Smith, Hayak, even Bush etc, laissez faire economics, the perils of protectionism and so on, I'll give you "a" benefit: The bundle of $20 bills you saved last month in grocery bills since you aren't being forced to subsidize Americans who will only pick lettuce for $12 an hour, that is, if there's enough American citizens who'd be willing to pick lettuce in the first place.

The ghetto(all of them) is full of AMERICANS that would certainly pick lettuce for $9.00 an hour.

That argument is IMO entirely bogus. ENTIRELY bogus.

[ChrisF202]

Did you know:

- That it is basically impossible for one to become a Mexican citizen unless you marry one.

- It is impossible for a non native born Mexican citizen to own land of any size.

- Mexico uses its military to patrol their border with Guatemala and the police and military routinely attack illegal immigrants from their "south of the border"

The hypocrisy and arrogance on their part is is amazing.

[ChrisF202]

To hell with the Border Patrol, it dosent matter how many of them their are if they are not trained and equipped to perform the increasingly dangerous job they face. We have Mexican soldiers crossing the border on a weekly basis and shooting at Border Patrol agents who cant do anything other the run and hide because they are not trained and equipped to handle anything other then unarmed illegal immigrants. And above all they operate solo with backup 45 minutes to and hour and a half away so obviously they cant do much.

Border patrol is a PARAMILITARY function ment to be performed by a heavily armed constabulary type force not a bunch of cops who are armed and trained the same as your everytown USA police/sheriffs department. The only difference between the US Border Patrol and the NYPD is that the NYPD wears blue uniforms and operates in NYC while the Border Patrol wears green and operates on the border.

We need to do away with the USBP and replace it with a paramilitary police force that is trained and equiped to handle the threats coming over our borders (Mexican soldiers, smugglers, terrorists, etc). Get rid of solo patrols in favor of squad and platoon sized patrols complete with precision marksmen, light machine guns, mortars, etc that would enable them to actually stop the smugglers and Mexican soldiers.

[Goatboy]

Not being forced to subsidize???

Unfortunately, cheap lettuce doesn't cover the roughly $70 billion taxpayers dole out to pay for illegals medical, education, housing subsidies, etc. There's a bigger picture here you seem to not want to see.

We are already subsidizing it, and taking staggering losses every year.

End housing subsidies (unless privately financed), End illegal alien medical coverage (except for emergency care of course). As for education, I'm talking about the "migrant workers" coming here to work, with a work card. No free or subsidized education for that worker either, migrant worker OR illegal alien (I'm assuming he's an adult of course, kids can't come alone to the US to work).

Now the problem comes when the migrant worker has kids, during his, say 3 year work permit. Well luckily the kid won't be old enough to go to school when it's time to go back home, and even though that kid's now a US citizen , the migrant worker still has to take the kid back to Mexico with him -- he (or the illegal alien) gets no free stay in America simply because his kid is a citizen (for the next 18 years at least).

[GSpot]

The ghetto(all of them) is full of AMERICANS that would certainly pick lettuce for $9.00 an hour.

That argument is IMO entirely bogus. ENTIRELY bogus.

Obviously not. Due to immigration reforms (or lack thereof, however you want to approach it), American produce farmers were left with a lack of fruit pickers this past season. As a result, bumper crop of fresh produce = unpicked trash.

[gunnut]

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" doesn't exactly sound like "shoot Mexicans on sight" to me. I don't want illegal immigrants staying permanently, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to KILL them. Are we to be the only Democratic industrialized nation which has such a policy?

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" through legal channels. It is not an endorsement for open borders.

Jeesuz man, do you really think border patrol agents would be willing to shoot some young male and female Mexican couple holding hands crossing some desolate Arizona mountain zone? Maybe you think it's fun to think of a young Mexican woman crossing the border illegally who, instead of cleaning bathrooms, picking strawberries etc, she's now a bloody pile of meat, covered in bullet holes. Could you live with that? Would you want to know anyone personally who could live with that?

Of course not. That's why we should mine the borders, at the same time make it easier for Mexicans who want to work here to obtain work visas. Then we need to have a way of tracking them. The best way to track anyone is to give them some form of official identification.

Mines will make it extremely unprofitible for illegal crossers. Couple that with easier to obtain work visas will ensure we document Mexicans who would otherwise be illegal and off the radar.

And then we need to get rid of this crap called minimum wage. It doesn't matter how much the government makes minimum wage to be. It's still MINIMUM. It does not help the poor. In fact it hurts them by creating a black market for labor, like what we have now with the Mexican day laborer market.

[neal990]

We have Mexican soldiers crossing the border on a weekly basis and shooting at Border Patrol agents

Have a link for that? I've seen it posted on World Net Daily but I was wondering if any reputable sources had picked up on it. Especially the "weekly basis" part

[Goatboy]

Of course not. That's why we should mine the borders, at the same time make it easier for Mexicans who want to work here to obtain work visas. Then we need to have a way of tracking them. The best way to track anyone is to give them some form of official identification.



Mines will make it extremely unprofitible for illegal crossers. Couple that with easier to obtain work visas will ensure we document Mexicans who would otherwise be illegal and off the radar.

We have the same goal in mind, and both apparently understand the economic benefits of allowing documented foreign workers to work in the US. But we disagree strongly on the method.

I'm not in favor of mines -- claymore, bouncing betty, nor tripwires with flame throwers ready to scorch, nor man traps with spikes covered in animal dung. Wall fine, ok, and punishment for those that are caught trying to cross (such as I mentioned before, which could include permanently blacklisted from working in the US.) but I'd like everyone to think real hard about the moral/political implications of such a tactic. To me it's wrong. I don't think bloody death is the solution to every problem like it often seems to be on WAB.

And then we need to get rid of this crap called minimum wage. It doesn't matter how much the government makes minimum wage to be. It's still MINIMUM. It does not help the poor. In fact it hurts them by creating a black market for labor, like what we have now with the Mexican day laborer market.

I'm not a huge fan of the minimum wage either. Many are hurt, some are helped, but all in all, I disaprove

[Goatboy]

The ghetto(all of them) is full of AMERICANS that would certainly pick lettuce for $9.00 an hour.

That argument is IMO entirely bogus. ENTIRELY bogus.

Yes $12 per hour was too high, i was just trying to make a point however that nobody in the ghetto is going to commute to a farm to pick cabbage for minimum wage. Seen many African Americans working the fields lately? It will be more expensive for consumers if we're forced to use indigenous labor.

[Swift Sword]

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" doesn't exactly sound like "shoot Mexicans on sight" to me.

Do not jump to conclusions.

I am not really concerned about the Mexicans; they are the symptom, not the problem.

Too, do not focus to much on the frontier with Mexico. Some of the shananigans involving the border with Canada over the years are downright appalling.