The Gap between Liberals and Conservatives is wider then I realized.

[dalem]

Hi Dale,

One of the entities in question seeks to kill you in the name of the God of Abraham, the other seeks to enslave you in the name of the God of Abraham and neither of them will let you live free.

The impetus for evangelical religions (in general, not neccessarily Christianity) to gain control of centralized government institutions is a well understood threat that has recevied a good deal of attention over the years.

Reference the reign of Constantine and forward trace the nexus of religion and politics to date. Run a paralell study in Islamic society and ideology and you will find a similar pattern. The Japanese have had the same fun and games IIRC. Don't take my word for it, do your own homework.

One of the best explanations was in a book put out by the National Defense University but regrettably I do not have the citation off the top of my head.

I for one prefer the risk of death at the hands of the so called Islamo-Facists than being shackled in chains by the Christo-Facists and will not succor by word or deed the efforts of either of them to destroy this Republic.

Live Free or Die,

William

Oh please. I've never met a Christian who didn't go away when I asked them to. And even if they didn't I'd not be in fear. Getting my ear talked off is a lot more manageable than getting my head sawed off.

-dale

[ArmchairGeneral]

Oh please. I've never met a Christian who didn't go away when I asked them to. And even if they didn't I'd not be in fear. Getting my ear talked off is a lot more manageable than getting my head sawed off.

-dale

LOL.

[mcdelroy]

You sir, have a very twisted sense of morality. Do you blame the rape victim for the rape too?

Funny you should mention that......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061027/...ralia_islam_dc

I'd be curious to see if Swiftsword returns for a rebuttle.

Marc

[Swift Sword]

Can you expand on this statement? What risks are you willing to take regarding Islamic extremists? Are you saying we should halt anti-terror efforts for example? You're use of the phrase “so called” in relation to Islamo-Facists seems to indicate you doubt the significance of Islamic unrest. Do you not believe Islamic extremism is an major issue or just object to the use of the word Facist?

Hi Mac,

I would rather risk death at the hands of the dog beyond the fence than sundry depredations of the wolf who has cleared the gate and is headed for the porch.

As to current anti-terror efforts, halting them or continuing will probably make no difference in the final outcome. The Bush Administration's idea that one can murder, plunder and bomb one's way to a security solution, as history seems to show, sure looks like a flawed assumption. Consider what Kissinger said about hegemony vs. balanced power.

In fact, a pretty good book for your War on Terror reading list is Kissinger's "A World Restored: The Politics of Conservatism in a Revolutionary Age".

Regarding the use of the word facist, Pan Islamic ideology strikes me as a far cry from Italian anti-Communism. Use it if you want but it is not really an accurate phrase. Certain elements on the American right are much closer to clinical facism than Pan Islamisists ever will be if you really wanted to quibble over it.

My use of the phrase Christo Facist was probably not a very accurate description in all fairness but some contrast was neccessary for purposes of counter-propaganda.

Can you give some example of what Christo-Facists, as you refer to them, have done in recent times which you feel is more threatening then what Islamic extremists have done in recent times?

How did it come about that the USAF Academy developed a mandatory religious tolerance class?

There are evangelicals (and again, this phenomenon is not exclusive to Christianity) who covet control of military and political institutions so that the can be used for religious purposes.

Paul Smith touched on this in "On Political Warfare" but there is a great deal of historical record one could study on the subject.

You really don't understand these responses? He is simply noting that after observing that it is, in fact, Islamic extremists who are perpetrating terrorism today, it is not necessary to read the Koran to understand that currently it is Islam which has issues regarding how it relates to the rest of the world.

If you care to study it, the ideology that many of the terrorists are running as OS is Pan Islamism.

Pan Islamic thought is a vibrant, well grounded philosophical movement that has its basis in anti-Colonialism and has evolved significantly over its three hundred year history.

It really was not until well into the 20'th Century when it became the volitile fusion of politics and religion as we know it today. In its current form, it relies on a specious rendering of a couple of Koranic verses which, in fact, has spawned a backlash among certain Islamic thinkers which gives a possible in for a potential "Islamic Reformation"

However, if we do not read the books the enemy is using to promulgate his ideology and use those fonts to subvert it, victory will remain elusive and a chimerical concept at best.

Liken Pan Islamism to a computer virus. It is a software issue, not a hardware issue and the software jumps from man to man quite readily. Ergo, it is unlikely that we can rape, murder, bomb, plunder, sodomize and torture our way to victory because it is not within our power to smash all of the hardware, especially since we do not know the location of most of the hardware.

Good counter-propaganda can reach the enemy when he is out of range of our bombs and guns.

Trying to combat an essentially anti-colonial ideology with the Bush Administration's neocolonialism and support for unpopular regimes is most likely going to only reinforce the Pan Islamic cause. Such a course of action validates the enemy's propaganda which enables him to effectively expand his recruiting and fundraising.

Because of the shear amount of ignorance to the subject of the Koran and its associated dogmas and ideological offshoots, it is unlikely that we will develop a anti-virus protocol to combat Pan Islamism anytime soon. I started studying Islam as a political science student at the end of the 1980s and I really do not know that much about it yet.

One thing I do know, however, is remaining ignorant is the road to defeat. Pan Islamism and its well developed propaganda mechanism will trounce American ignorance and--what should be criminal--failure to combat the menace on the real battlefield: right between the ears of several hundred million of the uncommitted.

I suspect you'd like to make the argument that Christianity's behavior toward Islam is the root cause of Islamic unrest, and if we read the Koran we would understand that Islam is a peaceful religion, and Christianity is really the one at fault. However, to that I'd say that even if one believes that Christianity has behaved poorly, there are plenty of people throughout the world who feel they have been severly mis-treated at the hands of others but who do not seek in-humane vangence and perpetrate terror. It really doesn't matter how Christianity have behaved because that does not justify Islam's failure to live peacefully in the world today. Reading the Koran, and in your words “doing one's homework” cannot begin to justify Islam's current behavior.

Ok. So now you are going to say that Islam's violence does not justify Christianity's responding back lash against Islam and you'd be right. However, the fact remains the west is responding to Islamic terror and trying to defend itself. But you'll probably interpret this self defense as terrorism too. To that I'd say I likely can't help you see things clearly.

Actually, you are pretty far off of my mark.

I have been a vocal advocate of treating the global terror threat as a simple, technical, legal and political problem that could be hashed out within the State system because that is what it in fact it is.

However, there are those who are putting a lot of time, money and effort into inflating the whole shebang into "Islam v. the West" or a "Clash of Civilizations".

Though I have never read Hunington's book, I did read his "Clash of Civilizations" piece that he later developed into the book when it appeared in "Foreign Affairs".

Hunington's idea is epic and grand which is why so much propaganda hype and hyperbole centers around it but his thesis was flawed; hence one should not be to quick to trumpet a great clash of civiliations is occurring before our very eyes or be hasty to characterize the GWOT as a religious war.

In fact, Pan Islamic extremism probably ranks in the shallow end of the global terror pool but I digress.

Now I seriously doubt I've caused you to pause and truly consider any of this. Changing your views is unlikely. However, perhaps others have digested these ideas.

Changing my views is actually quite easy as I have a pretty open mind on most things (accept for the security of our homes and the Bill of Rights; here I am likely to throw fits); afterall, I am the one advocating reading books that others seem to consider distasteful.

Regardless, you've likely DISCOURAGED people from reading the Koran.

Not likely.

People are more likely to go for the red, white and blue campaign literature in their mailbox that essentially says "if you do not vote for us and our plan to continue throwing money down mantraps in SW Asia and the CARs, you and your children will all be killed by terrorists".

It is much easier to play on people's emotions and ignorance than it is to get them to read a book that is alien in concept and difficult to understand which brings us back to...drum roll pleaz...DOING YOUR OWN HOMEWORK!

Regards,

William

[Swift Sword]

As far as I can figure, I'm evidently a member of this "Christo-Fascist" movement. At least, I am a member of the evangelical/fundamentalist Christian community. Not by any means in the Christian Identity movement or anything like that, simply good old fashioned Bible believing Protestants. The source of evil fascist authoritarian organisations like Focus on the Family, Christian Coalition, and <gasp> even the Southern Baptists. And as such, I feel that I have a reasonably good handle on the beliefs, goals, and attitudes of this community. And I can assure you, we have very little desire to control gov't, let alone enslave humanity. We would like to have a voice in our gov't, like any other group with common interests such as farmers, or homosexuals, or textile manufacturers.

As a fellow Christian, I understand exactly where you are coming from and you are not part of "the problem" that I am getting at.

I have been to more than a few churches where political campaign literature was being distributed and the theme of the sermon was "get these guys into the offices so we can use the offices to do God's work".

Maybe you have not run across this yet but I assure you it is out there.

I was raised Episcopalian but I choose not to follow the precepts of that sect. I tend to wander about and have poked my head into a few different houses of worship or quiet groves where vespers were afoot. I understand that Faith is being expressed in many different ways throughout this land.

However, there is, in some of the churches I have walked into, a brewing fusion of religion and politics not at all unlike that of the Islamic extremists. I probably should have reported one of these outfits to the FBI based on some things I saw in the church basement.

My sample pool is limited but the phenomenon does exist and it seems to be spreading based on what some of my friends and family tell me. I might be able to learn more but I tend to avoid the establishments once I find them because I truly feel that nothing good will come of it. I am most definitely amongst the "render unto Caesar..." crowd.

Speaking of "we," I should make clear that the evangelical community is far from monolithic in this, or any regard. Although I believe I can make some generalized statements about common attitudes, there is no consensus, and most certainly no "conspiracy."

I absolutely concur. This is not about conspiracies per se as Christianity is certainly quite fractured. However, the IRS is noting a pattern of politicking in Churches so I keep an eye open. You do not need a conspiracy to get control of a public office and once you have the power it is yours to do what you will with it.

If anything, there is a tendency to avoid issues of gov't. Granted, we have vocal people and groups who try to influence our gov't, but on the whole, we are deeply suspicious of gov't. This follows from our long history of persecution by the authorities, stretching from Nero, through the Inquisition, and, in other parts of the world, into the present.

Agreed.

I can understand why people with radically different views would view us as a threat. This is common when people disagree strongly with each other, and have little real contact with each other. My aunt is a lesbian, and she sometimes talks about the "wacko right wing fundamentalists" and how they're going to put all gays in concentration camps. This is despite the fact that she knows that much of our family are such wackos, and have no desire to put anyone into concentration camps, or anything even remotely like it. I guess she just thinks we're the exception to the rule. There are many Christians who view others the same way. Often we are just as afraid of liberals/whatever as they are of us. Kinda sad.

Having worked in the gun business under two terms of Clinton, I understand exactly how your aunt is perceiving things. If you have been persecuted once, the tendancy is to steadfastly hold to the "slippery slope" principle because things do tend to progress if the alarm is not raised early on.

As far as man and God are concernced, IMO, it is our nature that religion and politics are but two wheels of a cart. However, there are those, and this is assuredly not exclusive to some Christians, who are seeking to put both wheels on one side of the axle and even those who seek to remove one wheel entirely. Obviously, this makes for a very interesting ride.

Spooky things can happen under such circumstances. Volume 10 of Jung's Collected Works, "Civilization in Transition", has some interesting essays on this and some other relevant subjects.

Peace,

William