"Acting" rank

[Gun Grape]

When I see Army Sergeants First Class (a senior NCO) with only six years in (I made the Air Force's equivalent rank, Master Sergeant, in 17, which is dead on the average), I just KNOW there's a junior officer out there who's being under-trained and poorly-advised. When I see a low-time Army Sergeant serving as Platoon Sergeant (usually a position for an experienced Staff Sergeant), I just KNOW there's platoon out there that's being short-changed on their admin stuff and mentoring.Those guys are probably really high-speed, excellent soldiers, and maybe they earned their rank or position by being as good as required. BUT...seeing those situations become almost normal, and the expectation by many is that if you DON'T get there that quick, you must not be doing very well in your present capacity. And the bar gets lowered, because now EVERYbody has to be the Super Soldier or his career gets retarded, and that terrific soldier that was doing great things is perceived as just another face in the crowd, and he thinks of himself as going nowhere, and he leaves the service.

I'm sorry to just go OFF in this thread and make it all about ME, but as you may perceive, it is something I feel very VERY strongly about. It's simply not a good idea to push people into greater rank and authority too fast.

I wasn't going to say anything but I really have to disagree here. YOU had a bad experence and couldn't step up to the plate. Your CO had faith in you and saw the potential for you to excel. You didn't. And you blame the system.

I held an E-8 billet, out of my MOS as a E-5. And I excelled. I was a member of a nuclear weapons platoon, at 3d MarDiv they had a Regt Intel Chief that "had Problems"and went back to the states. The call went out for someone that had the investigation level that could be read in. Gun Grape drew the short straw. The Regt Cdr (Col) interviewed me and liked what he saw.

Normally a Battalion Intel Chief would have been moved up, but the Bns were being attached to 1st and 2d Div for Desert Storm. I came in, hit the books, worked late hours. 2 weeks later the Regt Intel Officer was pulled because he was one of the few Farsi speakers in the Corps.

End result, I was mentioned by name by more than one Commander that had recieved units that I had provided intel support (MC&G,Fact books, threat cards for FOs, ect) to. Within 3 months I was briefing the Div Cdr (2 Star), Was awarded the N/MC Commendation Medal and achieved the highest rating in 3 MEF on the Intel Commanding Generals Readiness Inspection (Like the Army ARTEP).
This from someone with no previous intel experence.

And I, like many others, have done it more than once. As a PltSgt moved up to fill a Company GySgt and a 1stSgt position. As a PltSgt moved to a BLT Log Chief position just before a cross country deployment.

In the Marine Corps you are expected to know your job and that of the next higher rank.

Don't assume that everyone else will fail, just because you did. You don't "Know" anyone is being ill advised or short changed. Some people not only can step up to the challenge but excel.

Now that doesn't make them better than you. They just have a different mindset/skill set than you. Don't downgrade a person without knowing how he is doing just because you couldn't handle a similar situation.

[Blademaster]

GunGrape, that's a pretty harsh assessment you made without fully knowing the whole story. You don't even know what kind of duties he was being asked to fulfill or what kind of training he got or support he received. In short, you haven't been in his shoes. So how can you make that assessment?

[Gun Grape]

GunGrape, that's a pretty harsh assessment you made without fully knowing the whole story. You don't even know what kind of duties he was being asked to fulfill or what kind of training he got or support he received. In short, you haven't been in his shoes. So how can you make that assessment?

Because I have been in his shoes. The Flight Commander billet that he talked about is the same as a Company Gunny/1stSgt billet. To handle all the logistic and admi duties of the unit. Been there , done that at a lower rank.

I'm making no more of a judgement than he is in the statement of his that I put in bold text.

I just KNOW there's a junior officer out there who's being under-trained and poorly-advised. When I see a low-time Army Sergeant serving as Platoon Sergeant (usually a position for an experienced Staff Sergeant), I just KNOW there's platoon out there that's being short-changed on their admin stuff and mentoring

The "I failed so I know no one else can do it either" reaks of BS.

If he couldn't do it , so what. Thats why we have 1stSgts AND Master Sgts,
SgtMaj and MasterGunnery Sgts. One for the leadership/mentoring/Admin career track the other for the guys that excell at the technical stuff.

[Bluesman]

You missed my point, Gunny.

Never mind, though. I'm sure you're probably just as right as you ever are about things.

[Bluesman]

Actually, no, I don't think I'll let it drop there. You missed my point, so perhaps you can benefit by me telling you how.

Here's some excerpted parts of what I posted, with the bolded parts highlighting what you didn't get:

It didn't involve rank, but it did involve position:

I was made the Flight Commander while I was at Ft Meade. I had 60 people on my Flight...and five of 'em out-ranked me. One of those was my superviser, which is an intolerable position to be in for BOTH of us.

That should NEVER happen; it places us both in a bad position, relative to each other, and for him, in the Air Force structure, as well.

You didn't have that part to deal with (unless you DID, and gosh-golly, what with all the rest that you overcame with such flair, it wouldn't strain my credulity at all if you now said you HAD, so feel free to make your heroism even more sparkling to us, if that's the case).

And what I've been saying (and will demonstrate through the use of highlighted quotes and the explanations of what they mean) is that every military organization is playing the odds. The reason that masses are needed is to ensure that you have enough people that can do the right things right, because the majority of people in almost ANY organization will simply be average or below. Truly exceptional performers are rare (yes, even in the High Holy Muhreen Korps). Making policies that count on everybody being SuperDuper Sergeant GunGrape the Intel Prodigy is just asking for a broken organization.

Now, pay attention to the bits you missed below, where my point was that promoting TOO (if you look in your Funk and Wagnall's, you'll see that means 'excessively') early means there's a price to pay.

It should never have happened, and it was a VERY unhappy time for me. I wasn't ready, and I was constantly across the street in the commander's office, getting hammered for something, usually late paperwork. When 9/11 happened, I was The Man, and immediately afterward, when it was clear to all that one of the senior NCOs should've taken over because I was in over my head...I had to shoulder the whole dam' load, and do the best I could.

If it seems I'm still a bit bitter about it, it's because I AM. My people deserved better than I was able to give 'em, and the guys that were getting paid more than I was should've been FORCED to shoulder what should've been their responsibility anyway.

I tried to quit. I told my superviser to make an appointment for both of us to go see the commander. He asked what the appointment was for, and I told him he was about to get a crappy job, and I was going to get a job more suited to my talents. But when we got in her office (and note this: I was determined not to leave that office still as a Flight Commander), she wouldn't accept my resignation. My boss was no dam' help, either, claiming how busy he was, how he felt the turmoil of a leadership change would disrupt the Flight even worse, blahblahblah.

She said, 'Sgt Bluesman, you're about to sew on Master, and you're going to have to learn this stuff anyway. Now's as good a time as any. Do your best.' I came back at her by asking if she was going to cut me some slack on some of the stuff that I kept getting slammed for, and she said absolutely NOT, I would be held to the same standards as all the other Flight Commanders (who were all senior NCOs, dam' her cold black heart ). But she said I had her total confidence, and that I had been recommended to the position by the XO of LTG Hayden, then the Director of the National Security Agency, which is a pretty strong endorsement. Hard to argue with that. I left the office as a Flight Commander.

I almost went nuts. I ended up with insomnia and a pretty grim evaluation for the year. I did sew on my stripe, but by then, my career had eaten some pretty severe tire damage. My people couldn't see what I was going through on their behalf, they only saw how much poorer a job I was doing than the other Flight Commanders, so I didn't get a lot o' 'attaboys' from the troops. I can't fault 'em for that: most of us have no idea what our leaders put up with on our behalf, but the dropped balls are out there for all to see.

A bad time for me. I think my chain failed me, and when it was clear that I was floundering around, no mentors stepped up to get me through it. (Actually, that's not true: I had a great friend from waaaay back on first duty station in Okinawa who was then a senior NCO himself, although he was VERY far removed from my chain, so the part he could play was advice only.)

If I were the only one to pay a price, so be it, but my folks, the ones that were working so dam' hard in the months following the attacks, the ones being gigged with STOP/LOSS and long hours and short-notice 'round-the-world TDYs...THEY shouldn't have been putting up with it, not when the solution was so easy: make one of these slack SOBs that have more stripes than me do it.

I sure learned a lot, but the price was purty steep. I recommend NObody get promoted - either in rank or position - before they're ready for it. It sets 'em up for failure.

BEFORE THEY'RE READY. When they have the requisite rank and experience, they SHOULD be doing that job, but NOT BEFORE, unless you think rank and experience don't matter, in which case, let's take that hard-workin' smart private and let him write up the next OPLAN and fly the airstrikes in over the beach. How's THAT suit you, Gunny? Obviously, there's a floor you should not drop below, and that's what I said. How can you disagree with THAT?

[Bluesman]

I wasn't going to say anything but I really have to disagree here.

Naturally.

YOU had a bad experence and couldn't step up to the plate. Your CO had faith in you and saw the potential for you to excel. You didn't. And you blame the system.

No, you missed the point. I wasn't blaming the system, I was pointing out that the system wasn't followed. If it had been, one of the guys with the requisite experience and rank would've had the helm, and everything would've been fine.

What I am saying is that the position of Flight Commander is usually held by a company grade officer, but our unit, one of the largest squadrons in the entire Air Force, was an oddity, in that we had exactly TWO officers: the CO and the XO. All fifteen Flight Commander positions were therefore held by our most experienced senior NCOs. Because they HAD to be.

Except in MY case. I don't know why somebody thought it would be a good idea to do that, but it wasn't.

I held an E-8 billet, out of my MOS as a E-5.

I guess I better revise downward the value I placed on Marine senior NCOs, then; I had no idea they were so under-utilized and low-skilled that a first-tier NCO could replace them. Huh. Who knew?

Hey, how low do you think that position could go, anyway? Maybe down to the top graduate of a basic recruit training class, provided he was REALLY sharp, I suppose (and we all know how awesome every single Marine is, so I think we should start trying it).

And I excelled.

Naturally; goes without saying.

I was a member of a nuclear weapons platoon, at 3d MarDiv they had a Regt Intel Chief that "had Problems"and went back to the states. The call went out for someone that had the investigation level that could be read in. Gun Grape drew the short straw. The Regt Cdr (Col) interviewed me and liked what he saw.

Personally, I think the colonel that accepted the arrangement was a madman, because if YOU fail, HE fails, and a whole Marine regiment is hurtin'. Stupid, stupid man; there were any number of different solutions that promised a better risk/cost/benefit. He placed a HUGE wager on you, and that's something he can't cover if he loses.

But luckily for the United States of America, you're the man that you are, and, although there were better, safer ways to play it, the long-odds sucker bet came through. Way to go; somebody oughta make a movie about it someday.

Normally a Battalion Intel Chief would have been moved up, but the Bns were being attached to 1st and 2d Div for Desert Storm. I came in, hit the books, worked late hours. 2 weeks later the Regt Intel Officer was pulled because he was one of the few Farsi speakers in the Corps.

And an intel professional is created out of thin air. All those professional development courses and the experience you get from years of OJT? Expendable! Hell, I think we should start doing night courses, maybe two weeks oughta cover it, and PRESTO!, now ANY servicemember can get his Cap'n Crunch Secret Decoder Ring and Intel Bubba certification.

End result, I was mentioned by name by more than one Commander that had recieved units that I had provided intel support (MC&G,Fact books, threat cards for FOs, ect) to. Within 3 months I was briefing the Div Cdr (2 Star), Was awarded the N/MC Commendation Medal and achieved the highest rating in 3 MEF on the Intel Commanding Generals Readiness Inspection (Like the Army ARTEP).
This from someone with no previous intel experence.

Well, as I said above, I am just am amazed that a sergeant has the ability to do the job of an E-8, even if he be a bad-ass such as yourself, and if it's true, why, I guess I've just been over-estimating what a Gunny is really worth.

But what really knocks me out is that you could replace a field grade officer, one that had been to skool and worked the mission, and, with no experience, so paste the hell out of the job that you was simply HEROIC at it, and bested the OTHER intel weenies, officers all, mind you...sounds like you're full of crap, Cochise, and I'm callin' you on it.

t is blindingly obvious that the man you were replacing has higher expectations and a greater range of skills and experience than you did, but he failed and you 'exceled'. But a field grade officer's capacities and a first-tier NCO's capacities are so far apart as to be past comparison. Unless the USMC is in the habit of grossly under-utilizing its officers, such that even an exceptional sergeant can just 'step up to the plate', and play in the Bigs. Please.

And I, like many others, have done it more than once. As a PltSgt moved up to fill a Company GySgt and a 1stSgt position. As a PltSgt moved to a BLT Log Chief position just before a cross country deployment. In the Marine Corps you are expected to know your job and that of the next higher rank.

Sounds like a necessary way to play; y'all can't seem to get your billets filled with the right personnel, OR you're inflating what's needed, skill- and rank-wise, to do the job.

No, actually, I get you, and that's not a Marine thang, ya big ole chauvanist. That's what we ALL do: begin training for the next rank as soon as you sew on the new one.

Don't assume that everyone else will fail, just because you did.

Okay, deal, but YOU have to read what I wrote CORRECTLY, and not put 'everyone' when I actually wrote 'some'. Want to shake on that?

Goes back to my point that when you're working in the aggregate and at the policy level (which, if you'll review the end of my first post, is exactly what I was talking about), we can't assume we're going to get the god-like powers of an incredible, unbelievable (and I mean REALLY incredible and unbelievable) E-5 to replace the problem-ridden Majors and Lieutenant Colonels.

You don't "Know" anyone is being ill advised or short changed. Some people not only can step up to the challenge but excel.

Very true; SOME can, but not all, nor even most, so here we go right back to my point about taking huge chances on getting what you need.

Match the experience and the rank to the position as best as manning allows, which, in my case, was NOT done, as there were sufficient senior NCOs to choose from over the mid-level NCO. In your case, well, if the Marine Corps had nobody to place in a Regimental staff officer's position (and one of the most vital positions, to boot) but a first-tier NCO...what the hell is WRONG with you guys? Y'all need to serious-up about this stuff, because it sounds pretty dam' Third World to me.

Now that doesn't make them better than you. They just have a different mindset/skill set than you. Don't downgrade a person without knowing how he is doing just because you couldn't handle a similar situation.

I have no problem acknowledging that there are people - maybe more than I'd be comfortable acknowledging - whose capabilities exceed my own. I have no doubt whatsoever that somewhere in the Air Force there's a whole passel of Tech Sergeants that could've done better in my position. Okay. I accept that.

But what we're talking about here is the fact that none of them should BE in that position; it was a bad call, even if the very best one in the entire world was found, and he was better than any of my five senior NCOs at keeping the Flight hummin' along. There were people available that should have been utlized PROPERLY, not allowed to dodge their rightful duty.

As for it being a similar situation...it wasn't. I can't think of a single instance where a decent parallel can be drawn between my issues and anybody else's that I've ever heard of. Having to move up a rung into unfamiliar duties and responsibilities? Don't think you're the only one, man; we've ALL done that, except for the obviously incompetent that don't have the trust of Higher.

[Bluesman]

Because I have been in his shoes.

No, you haven't. If you think you have, you're still not getting my point.

The Flight Commander billet that he talked about is the same as a Company Gunny/1stSgt billet. To handle all the logistic and admi duties of the unit. Been there , done that at a lower rank.

What the hell is wrong with USMC manning, for gawd's sake?

Seriously, so have I, and it goes with the territory. Did just fine, too.

The "I failed so I know no one else can do it either" reaks of BS.

I probably shouldn't have said 'I KNOW', when what I meant was 'it's a pretty good bet'. Because I acknowledge that there ARE guys like you that can leap tall buildings, etc etc. It's just a dumb idea to bet that's what you're going to get, ESPECIALLY if alternatives are available.

If he couldn't do it , so what. Thats why we have 1stSgts AND Master Sgts,
SgtMaj and MasterGunnery Sgts. One for the leadership/mentoring/Admin career track the other for the guys that excell at the technical stuff.

Now, see, right HERE is where I know you didn't get what I wrote. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM: I'd have been FINE (probably) if I'd had the proper mentoring and instruction and support. Instead, these guys totally bailed on me, and the Flight paid for it. (Me too, but that's by the way.)

I am against going TOO (remember: that word means 'excessively', and that's what I wrote and that's what I meant) fast. If the guy CAN handle it, he's obviously ready for the promotion; it's self-defining. But I was done dirty, and YOU, GunGrape, have to acknowledge this: you weren't tested to the point of failure, and that just means they didn't find your ceiling. It does NOT mean that you don't have one.

Because you do. Copy?

[Gun Grape]

Well heres my take. You put it out I gave my opinion.

Forgetting all the smoke and mirrors and dings about "Super duper" and "hyper egos". To me here is the bottom line.

(but I'll comment on some of the other for S&G)

BEFORE THEY'RE READY. When they have the requisite rank and experience, they SHOULD be doing that job, but NOT BEFORE, unless you think rank and experience don't matter, in which case, let's take that hard-workin' smart private and let him write up the next OPLAN and fly the airstrikes in over the beach. How's THAT suit you, Gunny? Obviously, there's a floor you should not drop below, and that's what I said. How can you disagree with THAT?

Oh, I don't disagree with that.

Now if I'm reading it right the USAF had decided that you were ready. By this statement I'm assuming that you had been selected. Are you saying that you shouldn't have been promoted? A Wing Commander(Col?) and a 3 Star General also thought you were ready.


I was grossly wrong. And I stand corrected, a Flight Commander isn't a 1st/sgt Company Cdr position. Its a Platoon Commander 2d Lt/ SSgt position
What E-5s and E-6s with 4-6 years in in the Army and Corps handle every day. And you were about to pin on E-7 with around 16yrs. Seems the USAF enlisted PME system failed you.

'Sgt Bluesman, you're about to sew on Master, and you're going to have to learn this stuff anyway. Now's as good a time as any.

It also seems that some people pretty high up thought you had it in you to accomplish the mission. (or your just name dropping)

But she said I had her total confidence, and that I had been recommended to the position by the XO of LTG Hayden, then the Director of the National Security Agency, which is a pretty strong endorsement.

Now if a 3 star thats in charge of the NSA cannot pick a Flight Commander makes you wonder who he has working for him at NSA.

Match the experience and the rank to the position as best as manning allows, which, in my case, was NOT done, as there were sufficient senior NCOs to choose from over the mid-level NCO.

Seems certain people thought you had it in you to get the job done.

In your case, well, if the Marine Corps had nobody to place in a Regimental staff officer's position (and one of the most vital positions, to boot) but a first-tier NCO...what the hell is WRONG with you guys? Y'all need to serious-up about this stuff, because it sounds pretty dam' Third World to me.

But what really knocks me out is that you could replace a field grade officer, one that had been to skool and worked the mission, and, with no experience, so paste the hell out of the job that you was simply HEROIC at it, and bested the OTHER intel weenies, officers all, mind you...sounds like you're full of crap, Cochise, and I'm callin' you on it.

Gee there was a war going on that 3d MarDiv wasn't invited to. And the deuce is a secondary staff member, falls under the S-3. He's not a field grade officer. Its an O-3 slot.

Why did I do so good on the CGRI? Because I read the darn books, All the little stuff that gets gaffed off by the professional weenies, I did. You know, updated clearance rosters, access rosters that were up to date. Documented the status of clearance investigations, MC&G logs showing where every map that had passed through the office went, contengency maps stocked, field desk complete per the SL-3. Crap like that

Inspections are not about how great of an analysis you are. I didn't analysis crap and not qualified to. Thats not what user level deuces do. Its about how well you follow SOPs. You know that, but want to cast doubt on me with the non military types on the board.

And an intel professional is created out of thin air. All those professional development courses and the experience you get from years of OJT? Expendable! Hell, I think we should start doing night courses, maybe two weeks oughta cover it, and PRESTO!, now ANY servicemember can get his Cap'n Crunch Secret Decoder Ring and Intel Bubba certification.

Never said that. Never claimed to be some intel professional. See above

Sounds like a necessary way to play; y'all can't seem to get your billets filled with the right personnel, OR you're inflating what's needed, skill- and rank-wise, to do the job.

Or we train our people. We don't inflate our billets, the rank per billet is consistantly lower that the same held in the US Army.

Fire team leader E-4 USMC E-5 US Army
Squad Ldr E-5 USMC E-6 US Army
Plt Sgt E-6 USMC E-7 US Army
Company Supply E-4 USMC E-6 US Army

So if we inflate, DoD really needs cleaning out.

On the ground side, train to the next rank isn't just a saying, its a necessity. More than once, a infantry company has been led by a Sgt, a Bn by a Lieutenant/Capt or a Damage Control party lead by a 3d Class PO. The game don't end because the "leadership" is gone.

I've had more than 1 battalion commander that would visit a company in the field and "Kill" everyone E-6 and above. Put the Sgts in charge and still insist that the mission get accomplished. To include all the sitreps, logreps casreps ect get submitted.

So lets just say that the AF trains differently. Thats why you failed.

My mentioning difference between 1stSgt and MSgt wasn't about getting proper mentoring. It was that there are career paths, one that emphasises leadership/admin and the other that emphasises technical proficency.

Personally, I think the colonel that accepted the arrangement was a madman, because if YOU fail, HE fails, and a whole Marine regiment is hurtin'. Stupid, stupid man; there were any number of different solutions that promised a better risk/cost/benefit. He placed a HUGE wager on you, and that's something he can't cover if he loses.

Then you must also think that the 3 star that recommended you was a madman. And that your Commander was a madwoman.

You may have not gotten the support that you thought you needed, but
just from what I've read from your post in the last 2 years, I would have thought you could have gotten the job done. I think you sold yourself short.

Wasn't trying to start a Pissing match.

[Bluesman]

Okay, I follow that. But REALLY - whether you meant to be or not, you were insulting me. I took a slap back, but I think I understand you a bit better. To continue (more civilly), read below:

[Bluesman]

Now if I'm reading it right the USAF had decided that you were ready.

True, they did decide that, and I think I'd have grown into the job but for two huge factors:

1) We had just gone to war about three weeks after I got the job. (Those first three weeks? Not TOO bad, and I bet if I could've predicted what was coming, I'd have been WAY more squared-away, ready for the fukkin' avalanche that was about to destroy my world. As it was, though, things were about where they should've been on 10 September, IF there was going to be a normal month coming. I was learning and doing okay for a junior troop with slacker seniors that were coasting. ) But after 9/11, NOTHING was normal; NOTHING was according to the way everybody was used to doing it, and stuff that simply didn't come up in day-to-day ops was front-and-center, demanding immense talent and skill and experience and the visible authority of the marks of rank of a senior NCO. It is a FACT that people listen to and react to a silverback better than some Joe Bagadonutz.

2) Everybody that should've been backstopping me was full throttle boogie, trying to get their own chunk of the war running right. I was assigned to the Iraq Military Forces Team; anybody here care to guess how much spare time anybody on that team had? There simply wasn't ANY excess capacity, and we were all so over-worked and ragged we were starting to walk into doors and talk to our computers. There was NObody helping me, and I was literally begging for my Chief to come down to the ops floor for an hour a day, just to get some of the administrivia cleared away. He managed to do that TWICE.

By this statement I'm assuming that you had been selected. Are you saying that you shouldn't have been promoted? A Wing Commander(Col?) and a 3 Star General also thought you were ready.

Well, it wasn't Hayden himself that reached down from on high; it was his exec, a colonel. He knew me from when I ran the Cryptologic Services Group at Al Kharj Royal Saudi Air Force Base. I whomped the hell outta that job (one grade lower than normal, which is, I assume, where he got the bright idea that I'd make a crackerjack Flight Commander, a TOTALLY different, alien function from the gearhead stuff I did at the CSG.)

As to my fitness for promotion to Master AFTER that mess, well, like I said, I learned a whole bunch in a quick time. (BOY, did I ever grow into THAT stripe! ) Also, despite a pretty humdrum fit-rep, I scored WAY over what I needed on our promotion test, so whether I was top-tier of the selectees or not, the test was the part that I was in complete control over for my total ranking, so I made it.

I was grossly wrong. And I stand corrected, a Flight Commander isn't a 1st/sgt Company Cdr position. Its a Platoon Commander 2d Lt/ SSgt position
What E-5s and E-6s with 4-6 years in in the Army and Corps handle every day. And you were about to pin on E-7 with around 16yrs. Seems the USAF enlisted PME system failed you.

Nah, it really doesn't equate like that. Although what I believe DID fail was my ability to communicate to my chain what I needed to win. I should've insisted that they force those senior NCOs to do more than they did for the flight. I was too deferential to what THEY needed, and I should've told 'em that if this is the current structure, with the commander putting me in authority over them, like it or not, they were going to start squaring this flight away and picking up the load. But I didn't, because I was too deferential to their rank and their mission. There's where I see my mistake.

It also seems that some people pretty high up thought you had it in you to accomplish the mission. (or your just name dropping)

No, everything I've said is totally accurate. And I suppose they DID have an idea I'd do okay (again, they couldn't see what was coming anymore than anybody else could, and I think we'd have all gotten away with it in a September 10th world. But AFTER...I should've been replaced first thing in the morning on 15 September, the day we all reported back to work after evac'ing from the NSA campus on the 11th.

Now if a 3 star thats in charge of the NSA cannot pick a Flight Commander makes you wonder who he has working for him at NSA.

Again, it was his exec. He was a bright spark, too, but I'm not sure he was totally clear that we had FIVE guys ahead of me in rank, and somebody should've made sure he understood that, instead of saluting smartly and hollering 'Yessir!'. (I'm not sure they didn't, but if they DID, then he's as responsible as anybody for what occurred. I say 'occurred'; nothing really 'occurred'. There wasn't any major failures or charges brought or careers ended, or anything dramatic like that. I just wasn't very GOOD at it, and LOTS of things were getting hung up and were slower than they should've been, and 'friction' issues like that.)

Seems certain people thought you had it in you to get the job done.

No doubt. And I think I would've been fine, too, IF we had not just had Pearl Harbor II overturning our little applecart.

Gee there was a war going on that 3d MarDiv wasn't invited to. And the deuce is a secondary staff member, falls under the S-3. He's not a field grade officer. Its an O-3 slot.

Okay, got it. Still, a difference of degree, but not substance.

Why did I do so good on the CGRI? Because I read the darn books, All the little stuff that gets gaffed off by the professional weenies, I did. You know, updated clearance rosters, access rosters that were up to date. Documented the status of clearance investigations, MC&G logs showing where every map that had passed through the office went, contengency maps stocked, field desk complete per the SL-3. Crap like that

Inspections are not about how great of an analysis you are. I didn't analysis crap and not qualified to. Thats not what user level deuces do. Its about how well you follow SOPs. You know that, but want to cast doubt on me with the non military types on the board.

Okay, got it. And NO, I did NOT try to cast doubt on you; like I said, it doesn't really translate directly, so I thought you had become James Bond reborn, with no MI experience. I think you'd agree that that would be HIGHLY unlikely.

Never said that. Never claimed to be some intel professional. See above

Okay, got it. We both need to acknowledge we were talking past each other; I assumed you were doing what I was doing; you assumed the same. It WAS a different paradigm, and I maintain that, while you may have done a better job than me, you may NOT have, and whether you did or did NOT, it shouldn't have been done, anyway.

Or we train our people. We don't inflate our billets, the rank per billet is consistantly lower that the same held in the US Army.

Fire team leader E-4 USMC E-5 US Army
Squad Ldr E-5 USMC E-6 US Army
Plt Sgt E-6 USMC E-7 US Army
Company Supply E-4 USMC E-6 US Army

So if we inflate, DoD really needs cleaning out.

You'll get no argument from me on THAT.

On the ground side, train to the next rank isn't just a saying, its a necessity. More than once, a infantry company has been led by a Sgt, a Bn by a Lieutenant/Capt or a Damage Control party lead by a 3d Class PO. The game don't end because the "leadership" is gone.

Got THAT right. The only reason I ended up in the Big Chair at Al's Garage (al Kharj RSAFB) was because Operation NORTHERN WATCH had been attrited by, of all things, Turkish insistence that American forces be limited to a number below what was already agreed upon. An entire rotation of replacements had a third whacked off of it, and the CSG in Ankara was using one of our Master Sergeants. I was next in line; I did just fine, and was decorated for a CSG so well-run that I was allowed to be a strap-hanger on an RC-135 combat mission, and I got to go home as soon as my replacement was trained up, nine days early. It was COOL, man.

I've had more than 1 battalion commander that would visit a company in the field and "Kill" everyone E-6 and above. Put the Sgts in charge and still insist that the mission get accomplished. To include all the sitreps, logreps casreps ect get submitted.

And that's a GREAT way to do it, too: IN TRAINING. Hard in peace, easy in war. Well, we were playing for keeps, and we didn't get any do-overs. Like I said, my commander cut me no breaks when I was short of the standard, and I get that: this wasn't an exercise, where one learns from a failure, and when you have to do it for real, you're ready. Well, my 'trial period', the part where I figure it out, WAS Real World. Not good.

So lets just say that the AF trains differently. Thats why you failed.

We weren't training, and there's no way you could predict this was about to go down. If it had happened six months later, I bet I'd have been on the bubble, even though I still wouldn't have been wearing that all-important stripe. (I maintain that it IS important, because I've seen the reality of the lower-rank guy that can't get any traction, but when his supervisor gets involved, why, what do you know?, the issue's been dealt with. You'll no doubt disagree with me, but it DOES grease the skids, whatever you may believe.)

My mentioning difference between 1stSgt and MSgt wasn't about getting proper mentoring. It was that there are career paths, one that emphasises leadership/admin and the other that emphasises technical proficency.

Yeah, I got you; I followed what you were saying.

Then you must also think that the 3 star that recommended you was a madman. And that your Commander was a madwoman.

A colonel, and yes, I think it was a mistake, and events bore me out. And also, I may be being a bit hard on myself, because I ALWAYS do that. I bet my commander wouldn't say I was an unmitigated disaster if you asked her how she thought I did. I just am WAY over-sensitive when it comes to doing a good job for my people (or a good job PERIOD: I used to obsess over the possibility of getting targeting wrong, and bombing somebody that didn't deserve it. Never happened to me, thank Gawd, but I knew guys that DID make a mistake, and they had to somehow come to terms with it. I was more lucky than good, though, because sometimes, it ain't a bad call, it's a bad break. Sorry...WAY off-topic, there...)

You may have not gotten the support that you thought you needed, but
just from what I've read from your post in the last 2 years, I would have thought you could have gotten the job done. I think you sold yourself short.

You're probably more right than I've been able to see, mate. Like I said above, I take it HARD when somebody - especially somebody I'm responsible for - has to pay a price for MY inadequacy. To the extent that they DID, I feel very guilty, and I think my own perspective may not be bias-free enough to admit that doing 'the best I could' was all that I could do.

Wasn't trying to start a Pissing match.

Me, neither. This is what you get with us girly, over-sensitive USAF types.;)

Want to try to get back to normal again? Virtual handshake?

[Gun Grape]

Okay, I follow that. But REALLY - whether you meant to be or not, you were insulting me. I took a slap back, but I think I understand you a bit better. To continue (more civilly), read below:

I wasn't trying to be insulting.

It has been said that tact wasn't one of my stronger qualities.

Sorry

[Gun Grape]

You're probably more right than I've been able to see, mate. Like I said above, I take it HARD when somebody - especially somebody I'm responsible for - has to pay a price for MY inadequacy. To the extent that they DID, I feel very guilty, and I think my own perspective may not be bias-free enough to admit that doing 'the best I could' was all that I could do.

Dude, You beat yourself up over the little things.

I've got a younger brother that does the same. I piss him off all the time too:) The Docs have told him that he will have a heart attack before 40 if he doesn't change.

The Senior Airman story. Bottom line, he signed the dotted line for 8 years.
If he is/was as good as you have made him out to be then he will have another chance. Its not the end of the world for either of you.

You didn't fail him. He signed up for 4 and an option. We were at war and the AF used their option.

Ask yourself these questions

Did my actions kill anyone in my unit?

Did I cause irreversible harm to anyone career?

Did I cause any member or their family to get kicked out of their house?

Did I cause any family member to go without food?

DId I get relieved for cause?

If you answered No to each of those questions than you did a good job. Quit beating yourself up over nothing.:)

This is an abbreaviated list that was given to me by a SgtMaj the first time I filled in (6 months) as a 1stSgt. I also thought I was doing a terrible job.

Me, neither. This is what you get with us girly, over-sensitive USAF types.;)

Want to try to get back to normal again? Virtual handshake?

Done

[FSV]

Bluesman - Have you ever thought about the ‘Special Adverse Fitness Reports’ that your Commander should have sent in, when you became Flight Commander, on those SNCO’s that were senior to you. You know the ones that included the statement “This individual is so lacking Leadership Skills that an individual, junior in rank, had to be assigned to a billet senior to the one held by Sgt XX.”

You’re upset about your performance as Flight Commander. You think that you should have done better, which says good things about you. Keep in mind that your Commander was satisfied, or she would have had you replaced! I’d bet that the experience drove you to ensure that you would never agin be caught short on leadership skills.

Jake

[Bluesman]

I should never read this thread after I've been drinking.

I am SUCH a girl, sometimes.

DANGIT!

ANYhoo, as soon as I get myself together, I want to express my appreciation to you both.

I may be the worst EVER about perspective on 'self'.

[Bluesman]

I just got back from my neighbor's living room. He was an F-4 jock in the closing months of Vietnam, and an Eagle Driver for a few years after that. Retired LtCol; super guy.

I was feeling a bit blue this Memorial Day - like I said, I should NOT post after I've been drinking.

ANYhoo, I was thinking some dark thoughts about all of what we've been discussing, as well as my lack of time in 'the box' (the CENTCOM AoR). I knew nobody else would get this but him, so I went by to see him.

He is the EXACT guy I needed to see tonight. He HAS 'been there', and some of his pals didn't make the rotation back to the 'States. If anybody understands 'survivor's guilt', it's him.

So, after talking about stuff to him, and reading what y'all wrote, I'm in a better mental place than I was last night. (Grape, dude, I'm SORRY, I uncorked on you; this stuff is starting to bubble up to the surface right now. It's stupid, I know, but...what can I say? It's been workin' on my head for awhile now.)

If I was short of what was required as a Flight Commander, I hope my guys didn't pay too high a price. If I didn't go Over There, I sure tried like hell, and I was ready to move at the command...but it never came.

I wish I could point to something that was hard, or more worthy than working a comfortable chair, in the bosom of my family, with nothing more dangerous than the drive to work on my balance sheet. I ate hot chow three times a day, slept in clean sheets (except for the insomnia, which was like being tortured), never spent a single minute under mortar fire, and basically was a REMF pogue for 20 years.

I give myself this much:
I never pointed a weapon that didn't hit what needed killin';
I never had one of 'my' pilots shot down;
I was a good analyst;
I was a good mentor;
I took care of my people and their families;
and I was ready at all times to go beyond what was expected.

But then again, most everybody else can claim that, too.

I was priveleged to be a part of a great, wonderful team of professionals, and that I was accepted into their society will, I suppose, have to be enough for me. I miss it on days like this, when I think about what might have been, and the words of the Patton speech keep going though my head: 'Well, at least you won't have to say, 'I shovelled **** in Louisiana.''

I did more that that, I'm sure. But I just don't know - and i never will - what might have been.

I better go to sleep, now. I report to work at 0630 tomorrow, and I'll try to do my bit, again...from here: sunny, safe, Tampa.