INSAS vs AK47 vs M16?

[Rusky]

Increase the sight radius of the AK (any model) and give it an aperture rear sight and you have a good accurate rifle. The short sight radius and "V" sight makes for very poor marksmanship, even the 9 mm Sterling is more accurate at 100 mtrs than the AK.

The ranges given are for "effective aimed fire", your bullet will travel beyond 2000 mtrs or 3000 mtrs (depending on the calibre) till it looses velocity and hits terra firma or any other obstical.

I know, i was saying that you'd have problems hitting the targets after about 600m (just an estimation)

[Bill]

Increase the sight radius of the AK (any model) and give it an aperture rear sight and you have a good accurate rifle. The short sight radius and "V" sight makes for very poor marksmanship, even the 9 mm Sterling is more accurate at 100 mtrs than the AK.

The ranges given are for "effective aimed fire", your bullet will travel beyond 2000 mtrs or 3000 mtrs (depending on the calibre) till it looses velocity and hits terra firma or any other obstical.

Which is exactly why i state outright that for 99% of all the shooters in the typical army 500 meters is a complete pipe dream with the AK-74. 500 meters with an M-16A2 is a much easier shot. Not only is the M-16A2+ far more intrinsically accurate, with a more accurate cartridge, but the sights are far superior as well. Even on a windless day at 500 meters a typical AK-74 is going to have a minimum machine group size of 12.5" due to it's inherent mechanical accuracy limitation of approx 2.5 MOA. At the same 500 meters the typical M-16A2 will shoot a 7.5" group from a machine rest.

[Bill]

I know, i was saying that you'd have problems hitting the targets after about 600m (just an estimation)

LOL, a gross overestimation.

I've shot a couple East Block military(select fire) AK-74s, IMO they're nowhere near the same league as the M-16A2+ wrt accuracy. Not even close. Not only that, but the sights suck something terrible.

[Officer of Engineers]

I've shot a couple East Block military(select fire) AK-74s, IMO they're nowhere near the same league as the M-16A2+ wrt accuracy. Not even close. Not only that, but the sights suck something terrible.

Out of curiosity, would I like to be your target at 600m if you only had an AK-74?

[leib10]

Out of curiosity, would I like to be your target at 600m if you only had an AK-74?

My thoughts exactly.

[Rusky]

LOL, a gross overestimation.

I've shot a couple East Block military(select fire) AK-74s, IMO they're nowhere near the same league as the M-16A2+ wrt accuracy. Not even close. Not only that, but the sights suck something terrible.

Obviously you haven't been shooting them much. Either way 500+ meters doesn't happen much in modern combat. Also i have been able to hit a target at 500 meters on the polygon, not the bulls eye but if it was a human body it'd be dead.

[Bill]

Out of curiosity, would I like to be your target at 600m if you only had an AK-74?

A more relavant question is how much would you fear the typical Russian conscript at 600m with an AK-74? ;)

[Bill]

Obviously you haven't been shooting them much.

Havn't shot an select-fire AK-anything since about 1990. I fired several AK variants in the Army though. AK-47, AKM, AKMS, AK-74. I've fired all kinds of civvie AKs over the years.

Either way 500+ meters doesn't happen much in modern combat.

Happens all the time in Afghanistan and Iraq. What do you think all the US sniper teams and SDMs have been doing over there, knitting wool mittens? Why do you think they've been so emphasized and expanded of late? And i have to tell you, 500+ meter combat happens in any desert, or Kansas, or Oklahoma, or anyplace really flat, and yep, in mountainous regions too.

Also i have been able to hit a target at 500 meters on the polygon, not the bulls eye but if it was a human body it'd be dead.

Have you stopped to consider that you're probably a better then average shot that was using a rifle in good shape from a rest? Think a Russian conscript using a 15yo AK-74 he was issued could make the same shot under combat conditions?

There are a hell of a lot of US Army infantrymen that can consistently make a 500m combat shot(as has been documented in several accounts of firefights in afghanistan, where in some instances M-4A1 Armed US Infantrymen engaged afghani mortar teams with effective rifle fire at ranges of 500+ meters), and probably everyone who's served as a US Marine Infantryman could make that shot with an M-16A2+.

BTW, i am referring to a stationary target in the above text. IME most soldiers suck at hitting moving point targets at any range beyond 150m, even with support weapons.

One final note about listed max effective ranges. There are actually two measures of max effective range. One is vs point targets, and the other is against area targets. If it is not specified, it is easy to misinterpret. The M-16A2 has a 550 meter point target max effective range. The 500 meter max effective range listing for the AK-74 is for area targets. The Area target max effective range of the M-16A2 is 800 meters, and the highly precise elevation drum of the M-16A2 is fully graduated to that range. An example of a point target would be a man, or a piece of equipment, say a portable comms or radar dish. An area target would be a squad or more of troops in the open, or a vehicle, and things of that nature.

The most important factor is range estimation and windage adjustment. At 500 meters, it is a very real part of the equation, and from everything i've ever read about russian enlisted training, i have no reason whatsoever to believe that they are skills that russian(or any other) conscripts have a firm grasp of.

[Rusky]

Happens all the time in Afghanistan and Iraq. What do you think all the US sniper teams and SDMs have been doing over there, knitting wool mittens? Why do you think they've been so emphasized and expanded of late? And i have to tell you, 500+ meter combat happens in any desert, or Kansas, or Oklahoma, or anyplace really flat, and yep, in mountainous regions too.

Yes, but thats why they use snipers and not infantry.

Have you stopped to consider that you're probably a better then average shot that was using a rifle in good shape from a rest? Think a Russian conscript using a 15yo AK-74 he was issued could make the same shot under combat conditions?

Well...as flattering as it would be to consider, i highly doubt it. Either way, in Chechnya i never once had to shoot anything 500 meters away under combat conditions.

BTW, i am referring to a stationary target in the above text. IME most soldiers suck at hitting moving point targets at any range beyond 150m, even with support weapons.

True.

One final note about listed max effective ranges. There are actually two measures of max effective range. One is vs point targets, and the other is against area targets. If it is not specified, it is easy to misinterpret. The M-16A2 has a 550 meter point target max effective range. The 500 meter max effective range listing for the AK-74 is for area targets. The Area target max effective range of the M-16A2 is 800 meters, and the highly precise elevation drum of the M-16A2 is fully graduated to that range. An example of a point target would be a man, or a piece of equipment, say a portable comms or radar dish. An area target would be a squad or more of troops in the open, or a vehicle, and things of that nature.

Hmm, what is the meter point target range for AK then? Did you ever shoot AK-74M? They only started distributing those to the Russian army in the beggining of the 90s.

[Bill]

The PMER for the AK-74 is 350m IIRC.

Never shot an M model 74.

FInally, it does not surprise me that your combat ranges have been so close in a mout environment like Chechnya.

[alfa]

The PMER for the AK-74 is 350m IIRC.

Never shot an M model 74.

FInally, it does not surprise me that your combat ranges have been so close in a mout environment like Chechnya.

What is in your estimation is the PMER of Ak-47 or clones using 7.62x39 round?

around 200m?

[Bill]

About 200m with a weapon in good shape. I've seen some AKs so whooped they can't group at 100m anymore though(we're talking like 4-5moa rifles, way whooped).

Oh, btw, Russkie, Snipers and SDM are infantry.

[Rusky]

Yes, but they don't use your standard assault rifle to do their work, they use a sniper rifle, or are you saying that in your army your snipers try to do their job with M-16s?

[Shek]

Yes, but they don't use your standard assault rifle to do their work, they use a sniper rifle, or are you saying that in your army your snipers try to do their job with M-16s?

Snipers are 11 series infantry who are equipped with a special sniper rifle. Squad designated marksman will use either a M16A4 with ACOG, M4 with ACOG, or a M14 with a 10x scope, depending on the unit they are assigned to. These are standard infantryman who serve within a rifle squad who have this additional capability. They are not snipers whose sole function is to snipe. They serve as a member of the squad first, and are tasked with a SDM mission based on specific mission requirements.

[Rusky]

Snipers are 11 series infantry who are equipped with a special sniper rifle. Squad designated marksman will use either a M16A4 with ACOG, M4 with ACOG, or a M14 with a 10x scope, depending on the unit they are assigned to. These are standard infantryman who serve within a rifle squad who have this additional capability. They are not snipers whose sole function is to snipe. They serve as a member of the squad first, and are tasked with a SDM mission based on specific mission requirements.

Well i didn't know that about the american army. Thanks.