Ask An Expert- Battleships

[Stitch]

It only took 1 Mk48 to sink the former USS Okinawa. These are not your grandpas torpedoes.

I'm assuming it was a Mk48 ADCAP?

[desertswo]

It only took 1 Mk48 to sink the former USS Okinawa. These are not your grandpas torpedoes.

That is true, but one should consider that there were no damage control teams, or just sailors in general on board. Even the guys who never get their hands dirty, typing up the XO's Plan of the Week, or pointing and clicking on the NTDS console in the Combat Direction Center (or Combat Information Center in non-Aegis or none-CV/LHD/LHA-type ships) know how to don a Scott Air-Pak, pick up that two and a half inch fire hose, and go to work if need be.

I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating. I was one of the battle watch commanders for the Joint Staff Crisis Action Team (CAT) that was stood up in response to the Cole bombing. I received a call at midnight and then for all intents and purposes, disappeared for the next several days. I asked my wife to deliver clean uniforms that I took from her every couple of days, gave her and the kids, ranging in age at that point from eight, six, and 18 months, a kiss and waved bye-bye, and then repaired back to the National Military Command Center (NMCC), or to my regular office, and either stood watch, did my regular job as best I could, or grabbed a few hours of not very good sleep on one of the sofas that most offices have in the Pentagon. Thankfully a few heads there have shower facilities because this sort of thing was pretty common during WWII, the Berlin Air Lift, Korea, etc., etc., etc., so none of us smelled like last year.

It was like that for about five or six days, then settled down, and I was able to go home to sleep. However, we stood 12 hour watches, and I was midnight to noon so it was hardly a normal life for a bit. I was a Captain by that point, so what I said or did had a different sort of impact than they did when I was a Commander. Parenthetically, I compared notes with my Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force brethren (to include the Coast Guard as we had more than a few of those cluttering up the landscape), and we all agreed that the transition from LTC/LtCol/CDR to COL/Col/CAPT is like this magical transporter where suddenly everything you say to your superiors is true, pretty much no questions asked.

All of which gets us around to the battle damage report arriving in house. As a certified Navy "wrench" (a sort of semi-derisive name given to hard core engineers like me in the Navy) in addition to being in charge and reporting directly to the J-3, Vice-Admiral Scott Fry, USN (a prince of a man BTW), I requested through him, a copy of the Arleigh Burke-class Damage Control (DC) Plates, one version of which you see here:



I plotted out the damage as reported in the message on the DC plates, in this case a slightly different version that shows you what happens when X number of spaces are flooded, or have open communication to the sea, etc. and arrived at the conclusion that the damage to Cole had exceeded the "floodable length" of the ship. In other words, from that point forward, she's going down, in theory, regardless of what the crew does. I explained this all to the Chairman, General Hugh Shelton, USA (another prince of a man) and ended my little short notice dog and pony show with, "General, I don't know why she's afloat, but that CO and his crew all deserve medals for what they are doing to keep her there," or words to that effect. This was one of those times when the words of a Captain carried so much more of the gravitas and auctoritas (God I love Latin; such words mean so much more than their English derivatives) that was lacking in those of a Commander, and from that minute on no resource was spared in getting specialists and experts and gear to the scene that assisted in keeping Cole afloat until she could be placed aboard that big ship, MV Blue Marlin, that moves big things.



Now you've read this story and are wondering what the hell it has to do with the price of wheat in China and the answer is essentially this: That was an all hands evolution that literally got down to bucket brigades to de-water spaces once they got the flooding slowed enough or stopped altogether to enable such old school efforts to work, and all those officers, CPOs, and sailors received the same training and practiced it almost daily. That's what saved Cole, and would have given a ship like Okinawa a fighting chance assuming she took no more major battle damage. She had a lot more in the way of resources to throw at that sort of damage. The real concern would have been fire. Had a fire started, or obviously had magazines been involved, then things get a whole lot more interesting, but still not a losing proposition. One needs to understand that to us, maybe especially to us Surface Warfare types, John Paul Jones' admonition, "Don't give up the ship!" is more than just cool words from the age of sail. We live and breath that one, train to it almost daily, and it comes rushing out when the need arises.

Here is one more point in which I take special pride. From 1994 to 1997, I was the Director of Engineering and Damage Control Training at Surface Warfare Officer School Command (SWOSCOLCOM) in Newport, RI. There is a fair chance that one or more of the officers in Cole's wardroom had come through my classrooms and training simulators; to include firefighting school and the "buttercup" wet trainer (we try to sink the students, and they try very hard not to be sunk) when I was in charge there. Who knows, CO, XO, Chief Engineer, Damage Control Assistant, Main Propulsion Assistant, Third Assistant to the Coke Machine Watch Officer, whatever . . . maybe no one. I like to think though at at least one of them came through while I was in charge there, even if it was only the Third Assistant to the Coke Machine Watch Officer ;). Regardless, the quality of damage control training is high across both LANTFLT and PACFLT since WWII and it has shown in the cases of Stark, Samuel B. Roberts, and Cole. Yes, they were taken out of action, but they did all live to fight another day, and it's because of that refusal to give up the ship, and the training to back it up.

[Dreadnought]

The USN "Ten Commandments" "unabridged" ofcoarse......;)

[desertswo]

The USN "Ten Commandments" "unabridged" ofcoarse......;)

Did it in a whole lot fewer words than I did, but yes, that's it in a nutshell. Keeping personal articles stowed at all times (when not in use) is a huge one. Clothing items, magazines and newspapers (fast becoming things of the past), etc., can clog portable pumps and eductors. Keeping them off the deck and out of the way if more critical to the overall effort than most people, even sailors, realize.

[Gun Grape]

That is true, but one should consider that there were no damage control teams, or just sailors in general on board.

My comment was suppose to highlight the fact that a modern torpedo is a much different animal that the WW2 version.

The Tripoli showed that the Iwos could withstand damage.

[desertswo]

My comment was suppose to highlight the fact that a modern torpedo is a much different animal that the WW2 version.

The Tripoli showed that the Iwos could withstand damage.

I understood your point, but I'm one of those who, while he understands and values the worth of air power, never much cared for such "demonstrations" as those concocted by Billy Mitchel for example. Likewise a test like this. Ship dead in the water, no evasion, no countermeasures, no escorts, and as I've already pointed out, no damage control. It's a rigged deck, and yes, the MK48 would do the damage described, but that doesn't mean she's going down, although she still might well would have. But I'd give the crew a fighting chance.

[Dreadnought]

IMO, The Bikini tests (2) Abel and Baker pretty much demonstrated the amount of damage even the older BB's could take. I once read the reports of when the USN re-boarded ships such as Nevada and Pennsylvania. They found them capable of mechanical operation (with repairs) and sound however not inhabitable by personel for the obvious reasons. No one even saw the Nevada give up (overnight) but the Pennsylvania was towed out of Bikini and had her seacocks opened and abandoned to sink at her own pace where as the New York and others were both shot and torpedoed to put them down. As DesertsTwo mentioned, no damage control and all water tights were left open like a barn door.

I posted these Naval reports of the bombs effect on the US fleet of ships sometime ago here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...rossroads.html

[desertswo]

IMO, The Bikini tests (2) Abel and Baker pretty much demonstrated the amount of damage even the older BB's could take. I once read the reports of when the USN re-boarded ships such as Nevada and Pennsylvania. They found them capable of mechanical operation (with repairs) and sound however not inhabitable by personel for the obvious reasons. No one even saw the Nevada give up (overnight) but the Pennsylvania was towed out of Bikini and had her seacocks opened and abandoned to sink at her own pace where as the New York and others were both shot and torpedoed to put them down. As DesertsTwo mentioned, no damage control and all water tights were left open like a barn door.

I posted these Naval reports of the bombs effect on the US fleet of ships sometime ago here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...rossroads.html

My father was a craft master of one of the ocean going tugs that yanked those things in and out of there. He enjoyed ionizing radiation so much that the Navy sent him on his last tour of duty as a general duty security officer to this place. :) It makes for interesting reading.

[RustyBattleship]

IMO, The Bikini tests (2) Abel and Baker pretty much demonstrated the amount of damage even the older BB's could take. I once read the reports of when the USN re-boarded ships such as Nevada and Pennsylvania. They found them capable of mechanical operation (with repairs) and sound however not inhabitable by personel for the obvious reasons. No one even saw the Nevada give up (overnight) but the Pennsylvania was towed out of Bikini and had her seacocks opened and abandoned to sink at her own pace where as the New York and others were both shot and torpedoed to put them down. As DesertsTwo mentioned, no damage control and all water tights were left open like a barn door.

I posted these Naval reports of the bombs effect on the US fleet of ships sometime ago here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...rossroads.html

Films taken of the interiors of the ships at the times of detonations I think are still classified. Only a few of us at LBNSY were cleared to watch them as they showed what Grade A shock really did.

Grade A shock is actually the shock wave in the water (not in the air) from a "near miss" that hits the entire length of the ship at almost the same moment. This led to a lot of design changes of how we mount certain pieces of equipment a certain way.

Today, the first ship of each class is tested for Grade A shock where a huge "bomb" of HBX is detonated underwater a few hundred yards out to see what stays in place and what doesn't. It's always awsome to inspect a ship after such a test and is always testimonial that we never have enough time to design Revision A perfectly but plenty of time afterwards for Revision B.

[85 gt kid]

Hey guys first off I wanna say that this is a great site! I've learned alot sifting through ALOT of threads lately and i've actually answered some questions that I didn't even knew I had questions about . Since I was in the 8th grade (10 years ago ) i've been fascinated with everything military but my favorite has to got to be the Navy (although the USAF is a close second ;)). I read alot and most of the modern military Navy books are centered around Carriers and Subs which I like but I haven't seen really any on BBs so I thought "why not write one". So in the last year i've mostly been doing research into Battleships, writing a little, more research,........... and even more research. I'm trying to get the book to be so that whenever someone reads this they can't say "An Iowa Battleship with 12" guns??? Pffff". Obviously there will be some mistakes but I'm trying to minimize them as much as possible .

So in my book Iran has developed a "forcefield/EM field" etc that destroys missiles rendering any kind of missile attack useless. So what can we send that can get through their whole Navy (which will be fictionally built up a little) and destroy an ICBM site that's targeting the US.....why a Battleship of course. The two Battleships in the book are also going to be two that never had a real life, the Kentucky and the Illinois. These will be both modernized versions of the real Iowas with different powerplants and upgraded guns (being that they were never finished makes it easier). I know this probably sounds a bit out there but hey it's fiction . So i've been trying to make all of these mods as realistic as possible (no three gun rail gun turrets, no death rays etc) but I have a few questions that I would like to ask to help keep this from not sounding too dumb.

1)Dimensions of both the Fire Rooms and the Engine rooms? I've read about one but not the other.
2)I read that installing the Aegis system was going to be done on the BBs but they were decommed before that could happen. My question is how would they have been mounted?
3) What were the ranges for the 13" and 11" Sabot rounds? I keep reading conflicting data on that.

I think that's it that pertains to my book for now . I do have some more general questions but i'll make another post for that.

John

[85 gt kid]

Heres the more general questions I stated above. So far i've been one 3 BBs (Massachusetts, New Jersey and the Wisconsin (i've even done a little volunteering one BB-64). Anyways I've read/seen somethings that I wanted to clear up so here it goes:

1) I read somewhere in the "We Got the IOWA" thread I think where I believe RustyBattleship said something about keeping with the "re-activation rules". I can try and look for it if need be but it was my understanding that the Navy and Congress have basically written the 4 girls off so is there something that i'm missing?

2) Now I know that technically you could fire the main guns and that "supposedly" that was gonna happen to one of the ships but is it a real possibility that one of the museums will do that in the future? I think I would sell all my cars to go see one of them big guns fire .

3) Do the alterations to BB-62's Turret 2 affect her ability to ever use that turret in real life?

4) Ok so in April I volunteered for a few hours on the Wisconsin (I unfortunately had a 5 hour drive so I couldn't stay long). The VC had me work in the starboard berthing space on the main deck (in between the funnels). Apparently the expansion joint seal is practically gone and when it rains it over flows the overflow pan and litteraly floods the berthing space. I think I pumped 25 gallons out of the floor ! Anyways does anyone know of an "easy" way to fix it that isn't totally wrong? Who know they may have done something with it by now but if not then maybe I could go up there in December and help fix it ;).

Hopefully I didn't drown you guys in questions!

[Dreadnought]

Heres the more general questions I stated above. So far i've been one 3 BBs (Massachusetts, New Jersey and the Wisconsin (i've even done a little volunteering one BB-64). Anyways I've read/seen somethings that I wanted to clear up so here it goes:

1) I read somewhere in the "We Got the IOWA" thread I think where I believe RustyBattleship said something about keeping with the "re-activation rules". I can try and look for it if need be but it was my understanding that the Navy and Congress have basically written the 4 girls off so is there something that i'm missing?

2) Now I know that technically you could fire the main guns and that "supposedly" that was gonna happen to one of the ships but is it a real possibility that one of the museums will do that in the future? I think I would sell all my cars to go see one of them big guns fire .

3) Do the alterations to BB-62's Turret 2 affect her ability to ever use that turret in real life?

4) Ok so in April I volunteered for a few hours on the Wisconsin (I unfortunately had a 5 hour drive so I couldn't stay long). The VC had me work in the starboard berthing space on the main deck (in between the funnels). Apparently the expansion joint seal is practically gone and when it rains it over flows the overflow pan and litteraly floods the berthing space. I think I pumped 25 gallons out of the floor ! Anyways does anyone know of an "easy" way to fix it that isn't totally wrong? Who know they may have done something with it by now but if not then maybe I could go up there in December and help fix it ;).

Hopefully I didn't drown you guys in questions!

1) Although they now belong to their respective foundations, the USN still dictates what can and shall happen aboard the ships. In the bottom line the USN still acts as Administrator of the each foundations contracts. It also tell them how they will be maintained and when they shall be drydocked for upkeep. So to answer the question...The USN retains ownership of the ships however is only the Administrator to their contracts as the different foundations are responsible for the ships matrerial conditions and safety.

2) If we are speaking a "live fire" then the answer would be a definative "no". A full service charge would no doubt drop windows in the surrounding buildings. The damage would be great (and expensive). Even the secondary batteries are fired with a fraction of their full service charge and they are VERY loud depending the amount of powder used.
The USN would also not approve of this without being under their control and must be petitioned prior to anyone touching those guns for such a reason.

So as too answer that question would be a definative "no". You will never see them fire a full service charge unless for some unforseen reason the Navy was to requesition them. Which we dont ever forsee happening again. (Then again nobody could forsee them being recommed in the 80's either).

3) No it does not. BB-62 (New Jersey) has had certain modifications done too it in order to allow the public at large to tour the turret, its shelldecks, powder mag level and gunplot. These modifications does not/will not impare the turrets use outside of undoing her mods (catwalk and access) and returning her to "full" material status.

4) The "expansion" joint is the source of flexibility for the ship. Allowing all of that weight (ships decks etc) to remain fluid and flexible. Only the exposed parts (main deck) can be damaged by the elements the interior workings of it cannot be as far as I know. Im pretty sure it would be an easy fix to restore it as now a days you see these same joints onboard your luxury liners etc. That is why they can carry cabins with balconies so high above the main deck with all of the weight it entales.

If they were smart, they would have contacted the Beau of Ships and repaired it in the proper method that they the USN recommend. The USN designates a liason for their ships to be repaired and they would only approve of such repairs in writing only after consultation and inspection.

These ships are normally "annually" inspected so it would be to their own benefit to point that out to their official contacts or when they are inspected.

In some cases they may even recieve help from the USN on matters such as this.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.

[shadow01]

1) Although they now belong to their respective foundations, the USN still dictates what can and shall happen aboard the ships. In the bottom line the USN still acts as Administrator of the each foundations contracts. It also tell them how they will be maintained and when they shall be drydocked for upkeep. So to answer the question...The USN retains ownership of the ships however is only the Administrator to their contracts as the different foundations are responsible for the ships matrerial conditions and safety.

2) If we are speaking a "live fire" then the answer would be a definative "no". A full service charge would no doubt drop windows in the surrounding buildings. The damage would be great (and expensive). Even the secondary batteries are fired with a fraction of their full service charge and they are VERY loud depending the amount of powder used.
The USN would also not approve of this without being under their control and must be petitioned prior to anyone touching those guns for such a reason.

So as too answer that question would be a definative "no". You will never see them fire a full service charge unless for some unforseen reason the Navy was to requesition them. Which we dont ever forsee happening again. (Then again nobody could forsee them being recommed in the 80's either).

3) No it does not. BB-62 (New Jersey) has had certain modifications done too it in order to allow the public at large to tour the turret, its shelldecks, powder mag level and gunplot. These modifications does not/will not impare the turrets use outside of undoing her mods (catwalk and access) and returning her to "full" material status.

4) The "expansion" joint is the source of flexibility for the ship. Allowing all of that weight (ships decks etc) to remain fluid and flexible. Only the exposed parts (main deck) can be damaged by the elements the interior workings of it cannot be as far as I know. Im pretty sure it would be an easy fix to restore it as now a days you see these same joints onboard your luxury liners etc. That is why they can carry cabins with balconies so high above the main deck with all of the weight it entales.

If they were smart, they would have contacted the Beau of Ships and repaired it in the proper method that they the USN recommend. The USN designates a liason for their ships to be repaired and they would only approve of such repairs in writing only after consultation and inspection.

These ships are normally "annually" inspected so it would be to their own benefit to point that out to their official contacts or when they are inspected.

In some cases they may even recieve help from the USN on matters such as this.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.

I remember when the Massachusetts whent into the drydock in Boston for her hull cleaning and sealing. They wanted to remove all 4 screws and cut the shaft ends and weld them to seal out and more leakage over time. The Navy allowed them to take the two outboard screws off and use them for display purposes, but would not give permission to cut the shafts and weld them up.

[RustyBattleship]

I remember when the Massachusetts whent into the drydock in Boston for her hull cleaning and sealing. They wanted to remove all 4 screws and cut the shaft ends and weld them to seal out and more leakage over time. The Navy allowed them to take the two outboard screws off and use them for display purposes, but would not give permission to cut the shafts and weld them up.

That is correct. The "Mamie" museum administrators asked a Program Manager in NAVSEA how to cut the shafts off. He is a personal friend of mine so I won't mention his name. But he immediately shot back a copy of the donation "agreement" that forbid them to cut the shafts which would make the ship non-restorable should she be needed in a "National Emergency". He said he could provide procedures to properly remove the propellers (unbolt them) but they were forbidden to cut the shafts.

Since then, those restrictions have been removed. Especially of the North Carolina which is in serious condition right now where cofferdams have had to be built to replace large sections of shell plating that have rusted away.

This is scaring me as we now have three major warship memorials deteriorating in the water with one already in the mud. That's the North Carolina, the Texas and the Olympia. I don't know what shape Mamie is in, but if anybody knows I would appreciate some input. We can then "reverse engineer" the start of hull deterioration to keep the Iowa class ships protected.

[Dreadnought]

Rusty,
Do these ships not have the cathodic protection belts the Iowa's have? That is excluding the Olympia.