How necessary were BB's in WWII?

[Gun Grape]

*Airpower did infact change the dynamics of sea battles that was a given. All forms had their strengths and weaknesses.

Examples:

Halsey himself was a aviator however he choose the BB's (SD) (NJ) & (MO) as his flag after the Doolittle Raid and for the majority of WWII.

The IJN Admirals majority chose Cruisers and later Yamamoto chose both Nagato pre Pearl Harbor raid and Yamoto and Musashi as his flag later in WWII.

Why? IMO, the chances of taking battle damage and survival from a rival with comparable weapons. More armor, more protection

Thats because Halsey became a fleet commander vice a Carrier Division Commander. The SD was designed as a Fleet Flagship for the start. The reason she had 8 vice 10 5" mounts like the rest of the class. Same with the Iowa class. They were designed for a larger staff than the Essex class carrier were.

The same goes for the Japanese ships. Carriers did not have the room to incorporate a Fleet Staff. Its a simple case of logistics

Tovey chose a BB (KGV) as well against the Germans in sea battle against Bismark.

See above. KG5 was outfitted as a fleet flagship..

Vice-Admiral Günther Lütjens chose the Bismark as his flag for Commerce Raiding exercises against the RN in the Atlantic.

It would have been really hard for the German Commander to have picked a aircraft carrier as a flagship. They didn't even have Battleships Much less Aircraft Carriers.

[Gun Grape]

I may be wrong , but I remember reading that during the Vietnam War that the North refused to return to the negotiation table until the BB New Jersey was removed.

If that is a true account, then that sends a "powerful" statement about the value of a BB.

Often 'Quoted" but you will find no factual information to back that assertion up. New Jersey deployed to SE Asia on schedule and left on schedule. M21 and I hashed this out long ago

[Gun Grape]

That kind of says it right there doesn't it. A Battleship was still needed for intimidation, symbolism, and was one of the few ships we had that we could intentionally put in harms way and reasonable expect the ship to return. in other words "Do not send a kid to do a mans job" A carrier of that time did not have the psychological pull as a battleship. Even at the end of the war, and several great carrier battles, the leaders of that time thought a carrier was too pretty to be sent into a place where something may go wrong and they might have to slug it out at close range.

Missouri was picked by the President. Named after his State.

[Gun Grape]

Then what about Leyte Gulf (Surigao Strait)? If we had not raised those ships from the bottom of Pearl Harbor (after building them in the first place) our whole invasion of the Philippines would have been in great jeopardy. Likewise ships like the Washington proved vital in the Solomons. As we pushed on Japan the battleships huge AAA armament and natural attractiveness to and resistance of kamikaze attacks saved uncounted lives. Then of course there is the NGFS and bombardment missions.

Lets look at the battle of Surigao Strait. Nishimura's Southern Force had 2 Battleships,1 Heavy Cruiser and 4 Destroyers.

The US Destroyer force hit both BBs with torpedos, and sank one. The attack also sank 2 of the 4 DDs and crippled 1.

This left the Japanese with 1 BB, 1 heavy Cruiser and 1 DD against the US BB line of 6 BBs and 8 Cruisers. The BBs/CAs sank the wounded Battleship. Aircraft sunk the Mogami the next day.

Did we Need the BBs for that action? Or would the battle have still been won by the Cruiser and Destroyers?


Battleships played an important role in AA defense of the Fast battleships. And provided good NGF support. Read the USMC NGF summery for the Pacific theater. They were good shooters, not great shooters.

The question was were they necessary. The answer is still no. Name the decisive action that they, acting in the traditional Battleship role, justified their worth.

The Fleet Carriers were the power projection force in the Pacific that allowed us to win the war. The CVEs were the decisive force in the Atlantic in stopping the U-Boat threat by getting rid of the mid Atlantic gap that the U Boats used to their advantage early in the war. The DD/DEs were the ships that did the actual rooting out of the sub threat and provided radar pickets to warn the battle groups. And Submarines denied the Japanese raw material by devastating their transport/merchant fleet.

[RustyBattleship]

Missouri was picked by the President. Named after his State.

That's correct. Originally the New Jersey was to be the ship to accept the surrender. Reason for her selection is that although the Iowa was the first to be launched in August of 1942, Philadelphia wanted to show more than Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell as all American. So New Jersey was launched precisely on 7 December 1942 one year to the day of the Pearl Harbor attack. They did the same thing with the Wisconsin the following year.

Trivia: Because Philly went triple shifts to build and launch BB-64 exactly two years after the Pearl Harbor attack. That made Missouri (BB-63) the "last Battleship" where she was built in Brooklyn and launched in January of 1944 almost 2 months after Wisky..

[Dreadnought]

[QUOTE=Gun Grape;750847]Thats because Halsey became a fleet commander vice a Carrier Division Commander. The SD was designed as a Fleet Flagship for the start. The reason she had 8 vice 10 5" mounts like the rest of the class. Same with the Iowa class. They were designed for a larger staff than the Essex class carrier were.

The same goes for the Japanese ships. Carriers did not have the room to incorporate a Fleet Staff. Its a simple case of logistics


*Disagree, You seem to sight one reason for Flag purposes. I can agree with that but there are several reasons why Halsey chose an Iowa class BB for his Flag.

1) Better sea keeping and stability in gale force winds. This was found out on New Jerseys sea trials off Rockland Maine in 1943. Officers would later comment that her handling and seakeeping in gale force winds was superior to any carrier or any cruiser in the fleet. The Iowas would have to slow down for other ships in the fleet during stormy weather or rough seas.

2) Off Guam and in formation both the carriers and the New Jersey "ran away" from Alabama (South Dakota class BB) when the Admiral rang for 30 knots as they note that Alabama became a "speck on the horizion" since she could only pull 27 knots at best.

A small clip from the logbook:

On matters that perhaps only USS New Jersey commanding officers fully appreciate, Snyder (CO during her Vietnam cruise) tells of speaking with Carney about Halsey's preference for the Battleship.
"Admiral Carney told me that the reason Halsey was so pleased with the New Jersey was that he didn't have to turn into the wind to launch aircraft and recover aircraft like he'd been doing in the past on carriers. Here he had a ship that just passes the aircraft carriers and was able to maintain course and speed and head for the objective without worrying about the ability to launch and recover aircraft.

*This is in relation to the quote I made in earlier post about protection and vulnerability:

When is an aircraft carrier most vulnerable?

When she's turning and speeding into the wind to launch planes and when shes recieving planes. Thats when she is most vulnerable, Particularly during WWII before missles and CIWS that protect them like now days along with their missle armed escorts.

*Halsey didnt have to waste that time nor stick his neck out for a bomb to land on a flight deck and possibly take himself or his staff out of action.

"Plus," he said, "the New Jersey had an entire suite of offices because she was large and modernized in those days - I'm speaking of World War II - so large that Halsey's entire flag staff had a complete intelligence operation and all the things that they needed to carry out the functions of a flagship, which had not been the case, at least that's what Admiral Carney told me."

*Note here, the Iowa was already built and at sea, Iowa was different then all the sisters at the time due to her Conning tower height and certain changes in her armoring scheme. She was considered the Flagship of the class not the New Jersey.

*This one I give you. However it is also documented (Seas of Thunder), Halsey also sighted "vulnerability" to have his flag aboard the Carriers. Halsey instead of inviting his Admirals aboard the New Jersey for talks, would visit the new Essex class Carriers instead because he did appreciate them none the less, but also so he could see them upclose citing his days aboard the Carriers and his former aviator days.

*Halsey also had prior command of a DD (USS Dale) before he assumed command of a Carrier. Along with PT boats as well.

He was a four star Admiral at that time and could have any ship in the fleet as his flag. He chose New Jersey, not just for some of the reasons mentioned above but also he was a native of Elizabeth New Jersey.

If politics didnt intervene, where do you think the signing ceremony would have taken place? Hint, it wouldnt have been Mo. ;)


Earlier, in January, 1945, Admiral Halsey left the USS New Jersey with his Third Fleet flag and staff. By May of that year, though, Halsey was back as Third Fleet Commander, but this time on the USS Missouri. Halsey preferred the New Jersey as before, but she was undergoing an overhaul on the West coast.

After he resumed Third Fleet operations, one of Halsey's first strikes was the bombardment of Naha, Okinawa. According to Stillwell's second Battleship book on the USS Missouri, Fleet Admiral Halsey said of the Naha strikes: "I gave orders for her to drop some 16-inch calling cards on the enemy's doorstep. I wanted him to know I was back."

[Dreadnought]

It would have been really hard for the German Commander to have picked a aircraft carrier as a flagship. They didn't even have Battleships Much less Aircraft Carriers.

*The German Navy (KM) had only two BB's at the time (Two of the worlds newest). Bismark and Tirpits both built, launched and already on final trials. History shows the Germans prefered Battle Cruisers as well as the British and they had plenty of them at them time including the neweset Prince Eugan in tow with them.

Germany actually had two CV's in building

Graf Zepplin and FLUGZEUGTRÄGER "B"

Graf Zepplin became a war prize to the Russians after Germany collapsed and was scuttled. It was found not long ago off Finland I believe.
The second CV was scrapped on the ways in 1940.

A link to Germany's ship building roster:
Kriegsmarine Naval Vessels 1935-1945 - KBismarck.com

[gunnut]

"Times were few and far between" like nearly every island assault in the pacific theater, and anti aircraft duty to protect the carriers. Battleships saw a lot of action Gunnut and there was a reason for that. They were needed. Battleships were crucial to secure Guadalcanal ( the turning point of the Pacific theater). Battleships usefullness were also the reason for their reactivation for later wars.

Battleships were nice to have, but not absolutely needed. I don't see any difference in outcome in every single one of these engagements if a fleet carrier were in place of a battleship. However, the outcome of these engagements would be vastly different if we had a battleship substituting a fleet carrier.

Ok now comparing a knight to an A1 Abrams is like comparing a blunderbuss to an FAL. Yes they are firearms but there was a hell of a lot of evolution between them. The idea of an armored calvary unit and how it is used in battle is still the same.

My point was that armored cav now has equivalent range as the main force, ie the heavy armored division and the heavy mechanized infantry. Because they use the same equipment - M1 Abrams and M2/M3 Bradleys.

Battleships don't have the same range as carriers.

[Albany Rifles]

Kind of appropos of nothing...while Raymond Spruance commanded the Fifth Fleet he usually flew his flag from the USS Indianapolis, CA-35. As an old cruiser man he probabaly felt more at home aboard her.

[Dreadnought]

Battleships were nice to have, but not absolutely needed. I don't see any difference in outcome in every single one of these engagements if a fleet carrier were in place of a battleship. However, the outcome of these engagements would be vastly different if we had a battleship substituting a fleet carrier.

*Gun, we have shown posts on threads from the "men in charge" of the USN at the time. Iregaurdless of what we say and think (our opinions as well) these were the men in charge of the USN at the time. It was their job to excute war in the Pacific. If they deemed them necessary, then no doubt they were necessary irregaurdless of what our opinions might be. Thats all of us. The men that made those decisions and determinations were responsible for not only keeping the US safe during wartime, but also to carry that war all the way across the Pacific up to Japans doorstep using all means possible. The Battleships included. There is no doubt they were indeed a required tool for that job in as much as every other ship was a required tool to bring about the desired outcome. It makes no difference what GG states or what I state or whomever else. We didnt wear the stars those gentlemen did so therefore we are also not privy to their thought train or intentions but in recorded history which always bears the hallmark of hindsight when reviewed years later by those not there and not even born yet for another few decades.;)


Battleships don't have the same range as carriers.

*In those days (WWII) thats very questionable as to range, the only problem is the BB could go alone, doctrine forbade your CV's from going alone without escort (DD,CVE,BB or other)

Now days not even comparible, theres no place on the globe the CVN's cant reach within X amount of hours. Even alone if need be, but chances are they not alone, their escort just is not visible to the naked eye.;)

[Dreadnought]

"Mac" used a Cruiser many times as well for talks and sometimes a base of operations.;)

[Gun Grape]

Kind of appropos of nothing...while Raymond Spruance commanded the Fifth Fleet he usually flew his flag from the USS Indianapolis, CA-35. As an old cruiser man he probabaly felt more at home aboard her.

Or that USS Augusta CA-31 was used as the Presidential Flagship by both FDR and Truman.

She was also the flagship of CincLant (Adm King)

And the flagship for Operation Torch instead of USS Mass. Embarking both the Naval Commander and General Patton the ground force commander.

And Rear Admiral Kirk and Gen Bradleys flag for Overlord,

[Dreadnought]

I'm having a heck of a time navigating this new method of uploading attachments. This will be my fourth try of a photo we took up in Benicia. Hopefully the lettering will be large enough for you to read.

This is a comparrison to Rusty's post about the different outside surface of the 08 Bridge.

[RustyBattleship]

This is a comparrison to Rusty's post about the different outside surface of the 08 Bridge.

Actually, that's Secondary Conning Station on 08 level. The Captain's bridge and primary Conning Station were on 04 level. The ship's helmsman wheel was actually inside the armored (Class B armor) Conning Tower. Presently both of the solid brass helmsman's wheels are stored in MARAD's APL. But in the attached pics, you can see the one on 04 level is inside the armor by looking at the slits. The one on 08 level has large portholes in it.

[Dreadnought]

Perhaps a dereliction in terms Mr. L. From what I know when the ship left Port you would find the Captain on the 08 bridge. Im sure you know where the entrance is. It is listed as the 08 Bridge but many refered to it as the Captains bridge since his other two residences were close by.

Im shocked with how stripped the Conning Tower helm is, They really did a number on it. Even the idicator on the speed dial is missing along with the "Trick Wheel warning signs" among other fixtures such as SSR (although I do see the pedistal for it). I figured the one with the portholes was the 08 since the 04 bridge had the hand crank glass protectors for the vision slits on the outside and then ofcoarse the main bridge glass.

Im guessing her "Aft" Steering station still has the brass wheel afixed or was it removed to storage as well?