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And the bad news is that to bring them out, all the piping would have to be tested and although most joints and fittings are now covered with non-nasty stuff, any new areas to be inspected most likely are covered with the nasty stuff. You also have to get a large number of bodies to man the engineering spaces and auxilliary spaces. People talk about wanting to be "gunnies" on BB's but it take many more "snipes" to make the thing go. Lastly, any structural mods would involve running into the nasty stuff on piping and bulkheads.
I agree with everything you say. We had the same concerns over the Missouri for finding enough crew members. Hell, some of us even volunteered to act as crewmen and two of the guys served aboard Battleships in WW II.
To reactivate one or two now would be time consuming and very expensive to meet all the OSHA requirements, black box upgrades, training, adding VLS, etc. Technically it can be done. Financially, it will never get past the first committee on the Hill.
Better cathodic protection to start off with. Missouri, Wisconsin and Iowa have the latest and greatest but New Jersey still uses passive zinc anodes.
Not extending dry dock availabilities beyond four years so hull can be sandblasted, pits welded up, rivets tightened or welded and completely painted with the latest anti-fouling paint.
Basically it's setting a specific schedule of hull maintenance and repair and sticking to it. That was New Jersey's problem in '87. She only had a 3 year cathodic protection system on her but was kept at sea for 5 years.
All the deep pits in the Jersey's hull were clad welded long ago. A boiler is not that complicated of a mechanism. It's the things that work in conjunction with the boilers like the main feed pumps and fuel oil service pumps that needed a lot of maintenance as far as I can remember.
the Jersey had B&W 600 psi controlled superheated boilers (saturated steam and superheated steam were fired separately) they were designed to burn black oil ( #6) which had to be heated to around 250 Deg. F to make it flow. In fact all steam propulsion boilers burned black oil, until the 70's when they converted them all to NSDFM, a High grade diesel fuel ( thats another story) Black oil was very cheap compared to diesel, so when the Jersey was re-commissioned they only operated half the boilers to cut down on fuel cost and man power. Boiler life was designed for 20-30 years but depeneding on how well ship forced maintained them, could be longer. If they didn't do a good job with water chemistry and follow lay up procedures correctly, then partial or complete tube replacement may be required. And as you say supporting Aux. machinery which is obsolet would be a problem for parts.
The New Jersey fired all of it's boilers, not half, they all worked. In 1983 the New Jersey left the coast of South America and steamed to the coast of Lebanon, it did it on all 8 boilers for the entire trip. I have that in a letter written by Commander Jones, the Chief Engineer while stationed off the coast of Lebanon. The only reason why large ships don't usually steam all of their boilers is because it's a drain on manpower.
On a 600lb steam system, the saturated steam comes out of the top of the steam drum at approximately 490 degrees and goes into the superheater where it comes out as main steam and 840-850 degrees. A line off the main steam line goes back into the boiler's desuperheater and comes out as auxilliary steam which is 490 degrees. Depending on the pump or turbine, it is either powered by main or auxilliary steam. A boiler is just a large firebox and it really doesn't wear out. The header tubes are routinely tested and sometimes replaced during yard periods and the boiler floors are rebricked.
Part of an insulator job, yes insulator, not lagger...... try to find lagger in any job title. It would like me looking under Squid, Anchor Banger, Gob etc., when looking under Sailor. Anyway, as an insulator I've had to wrap superheater headers or screenwall headers in Kitty Hawk class carriers, Tarawa class carriers, and Knox class frigates. I've also spent about 10,000 manhours on the Missouri and New Jersey, and many of then in engineering so I have a pretty good idea what I'm writing about.
The New Jersey fired all of it's boilers, not half, they all worked. In 1983 the New Jersey left the coast of South America and steamed to the coast of Lebanon, it did it on all 8 boilers for the entire trip. I have that in a letter written by Commander Jones, the Chief Engineer while stationed off the coast of Lebanon. The only reason why large ships don't usually steam all of their boilers is because it's a drain on manpower.
On a 600lb steam system, the saturated steam comes out of the top of the steam drum at approximately 490 degrees and goes into the superheater where it comes out as main steam and 840-850 degrees. A line off the main steam line goes back into the boiler's desuperheater and comes out as auxilliary steam which is 490 degrees. Depending on the pump or turbine, it is either powered by main or auxilliary steam. A boiler is just a large firebox and it really doesn't wear out. The header tubes are routinely tested and sometimes replaced during yard periods and the boiler floors are rebricked.
What you have just described is a non controlled superheated boiler the Jersey had B&W M type controlled superheated boilers, two fireboxes separately fired. I didn't say the other boilers didn't work, I said they only operated half the boilers as routine to conserve fuel. 8 boiler ops is an exception rather than the rule, they were ordered to run that speed.
What you have just described is a non controlled superheated boiler the Jersey had B&W M type controlled superheated boilers, two fireboxes separately fired. I didn't say the other boilers didn't work, I said they only operated half the boilers as routine to conserve fuel. 8 boiler ops is an exception rather than the rule, they were ordered to run that speed.
That's strange. Where was your bunk when Salty and I sailed on those ships during ALL their trials with ALL their boilers running with ALL their shafts turning at 200 to 210 RPM churning up a Rooster Tail at 32 knots and requiring Escort ships (mostly FFs) to change off because they couldn't keep up with us?
Where do you get this "non controlled" c--p? Out of a book?
Were you aboard with us when Missouri did a full "Crash Back" with ALL four shafts at FULL rpm going into reverse at FULL rpm? If so, do you recall how far it took us to stop before moving backwards at FULL rpm for the next 4 hours?
Were you aboard New Jersey when she made her full speed run with ALL EIGHT BOILERS and ALL FOUR PROPELLERS at full flank for her dash to Lebanon? Were you in the Chief's Quarters bouncing around like those metal football players on the vibrating tin board game because of the turbulence the props put out threw up a Rooster Tail STARTING at only 24 knots?
Were you on the Missouri when she made her run to Iraq and a tooth broke in the main reduction bull gear and Jonesy (later promoted as Captain Jones that Salty spoke of earlier) personally welded it back up and he and another full commander literally hand filed it to shape? Then Captain Kais was able to bring all four screws back on line and made his rendevous with Wisconsin ON TIME.
Were you a crewman aboard one of those four ships? If so, please tell me how you thought they never ran on all boilers.
Don't forget, not only was I the lead structural designer for their modernization and reactivation, I was one of their lead INSPECTORS during their sea trials. As a matter of fact, Salty's bunk was only a couple of compartments away from mine.
SO WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Sorry if I sound pi--ed off. I am. I am sick of seeing the AMERICAN FLAG flown upside down with the MEXICAN flag flying above it. I am sick of having to call Allstate today because somebody smashed the windows of my Dakota because I am an AMERICAN (I complained about it on another forum). I was born and raised here. My wife was born in Hungary, lived in Venezuela for 8 years (she speaks Spanish MUCH better than the Mexicans) and is a NATURALIZED AMERICAN CITIZEN who nearly vommited seeing OUR FLAG upside down.
I am sick of the Iowa class Battleships being put out to pasture. I am sick of the news report the other day that some former city officials of Long Beach ADMITTED they wanted the shipyard and base closed. There reason was so they could turn it into a profitable container terminal and then take their 15% to "improve tourist attractions" downtown around Pine and Ocean.
For the Administrator: If my reaction is too extreme for being a patriotic American for this board, please feel free to remove me from it.
Dick, I did forget to add that in Commander Jones letter, he mentioned that the New Jersey averaged 28 knots from South America to Lebanon. I don't quite remember whether it took 11 or 12 days, but that's moving for any type of ship.
I always thought that LBNSY was closed so that San Diego's private contractors could get the ship overhaul work. Who was that former mayor of San Diego who ended up in a high political position in California? Petey Wilson? LBNSY was the only Naval shipyard showing a profit every year, yet BRAC closed us down in budget cuts. As for the private contractors in San Diego, they did and probably still do lousy work and now the Naval ships have to steam to Bremerton to get any decent work done.
I read about the truck window smashing on the other website and didn't know it was you because it wasn't signed. Your neighbor's truck was also vandalized?
Salty:
I don't know about "Cdr" Jones' letter. But I knew him when he was a Lt. JG in supships on the Alamo. I knew him as a Lt. Cdr on New Jersey. I knew him as a full Cdr on Missouri. I knew him as a full Captain and Commanding Officer of the Naval Base. I knew him and his favorite yeoman, John Lewis (who ALSO served aboard New Jersey and Missouri), when Jonesy was in charge of the Amphib group in Sand Diego. Lewis joined my Dreadnaught Consulting team up in Bremerton to get Missouri ready for tow to Hawaii. I was at Lewis' last re-enlistment ceremony and bought everybody dinner.
As for the broken truck window, I was the only victim this time. But it has happened before on my corner to my International, my Pinto and my Caravan. It also happened twice to my neighbor behind me (I found a Pachenko ball in his truck that was the culprit from an old fashioned slingshot). BUT, this time my truck was facing 90 degrees out from the other vandalisms and actually directly in front of my house instead of the frontage side street. The LBPD officer on patrol said he got there just in time to prevent someone from stealing the truck (wish he was there a few years ago when somebody crawled UNDER my Pinto and stole my drive shaft).
I'd move out of California but a warm island with tan topless girls dancing hulas and serving you Mai Tais doesn't exist except in imagination.
Dick, my Dad ran the coppersmith's section inside the pipe shop and when sailors came in looking for things, my Dad tried to help them out as much as possible because my Dad retired from the Navy and he knew what it was like to have to sometimes scrounge extra parts during an overhaul. He could also point them in the right direction to get other goods from other shops. There was always a retired Navy person working as a supervisor in one shop or another wiling to help out sailors. He and Cdr Jones became good friends and Jones would do nice things like giving us a Jersey cruise book, invitations to the Jersey and Missouri recommissioning and various things. When the Jersey was off the coast of Lebanon, Jones sent my Dad a letter. He probably wrote to a lot of people to kill time, I don't know.
That's strange. Where was your bunk when Salty and I sailed on those ships during ALL their trials with ALL their boilers running with ALL their shafts turning at 200 to 210 RPM churning up a Rooster Tail at 32 knots and requiring Escort ships (mostly FFs) to change off because they couldn't keep up with us?
Where do you get this "non controlled" c--p? Out of a book?
Were you aboard with us when Missouri did a full "Crash Back" with ALL four shafts at FULL rpm going into reverse at FULL rpm? If so, do you recall how far it took us to stop before moving backwards at FULL rpm for the next 4 hours?
Were you aboard New Jersey when she made her full speed run with ALL EIGHT BOILERS and ALL FOUR PROPELLERS at full flank for her dash to Lebanon? Were you in the Chief's Quarters bouncing around like those metal football players on the vibrating tin board game because of the turbulence the props put out threw up a Rooster Tail STARTING at only 24 knots?
Were you on the Missouri when she made her run to Iraq and a tooth broke in the main reduction bull gear and Jonesy (later promoted as Captain Jones that Salty spoke of earlier) personally welded it back up and he and another full commander literally hand filed it to shape? Then Captain Kais was able to bring all four screws back on line and made his rendevous with Wisconsin ON TIME.
Were you a crewman aboard one of those four ships? If so, please tell me how you thought they never ran on all boilers.
Don't forget, not only was I the lead structural designer for their modernization and reactivation, I was one of their lead INSPECTORS during their sea trials. As a matter of fact, Salty's bunk was only a couple of compartments away from mine.
SO WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Sorry if I sound pi--ed off. I am. I am sick of seeing the AMERICAN FLAG flown upside down with the MEXICAN flag flying above it. I am sick of having to call Allstate today because somebody smashed the windows of my Dakota because I am an AMERICAN (I complained about it on another forum). I was born and raised here. My wife was born in Hungary, lived in Venezuela for 8 years (she speaks Spanish MUCH better than the Mexicans) and is a NATURALIZED AMERICAN CITIZEN who nearly vommited seeing OUR FLAG upside down.
I am sick of the Iowa class Battleships being put out to pasture. I am sick of the news report the other day that some former city officials of Long Beach ADMITTED they wanted the shipyard and base closed. There reason was so they could turn it into a profitable container terminal and then take their 15% to "improve tourist attractions" downtown around Pine and Ocean.
For the Administrator: If my reaction is too extreme for being a patriotic American for this board, please feel free to remove me from it.
I was in the Navy for 23 yrs. also a boiler inspecter, I went into the Navy in 1961. I was also stationed at Navsurflant Readiness Support Group. was in Phila. when they put the Jersey back in commission. I know want kind of boilers she has on board . I'm just stating a fact, if you won't except the fact, sorry! The examples you gave of the Jersey under 8 boiler ops were for sea trails and a ordered full power transit, the exception not the rule.
I know want kind of boilers she has on board . I'm just stating a fact, if you won't except the fact, sorry!
I'm a bit confused - no surprise there - what's the disagreement here?
What kind of boilers are on the Iowas?
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
I'm a bit confused - no surprise there - what's the disagreement here?
What kind of boilers are on the Iowas?
Sorry if I sounded on edge there, but I was. You would be SHOCKED to know how many so-called "experts" there are out there that have never even SEEN a ship. I base this on a model ship and hobby show I went to a few days after New Jersey deployed. A friend of mine (who also worked for me at the shipyard as a draftsman) was in charge of one of the tables selling fiberglass hulls he makes (of everything from U-Boats to Nimitz class carriers). At a table nearby was a modified Revell model of the New Jersey. The base model for it was done by Loren Perry in my friend's shop with both us dropping a hint or two to Loren as to what she really would look like.
Some loudmouthed "expert" (I think he was a judge also), was criticizing the model as not having the canted ski-jump flight deck that he claimed was installed. Of course he was basing his expertise on a photo he saw of a highly modified Sterling model made of balsa wood and cardboard. The last I saw of that model it was gathering dust at the dark end of a damp hallway in the Pentagon.
Naturally, my friend and I had to say something like, "That's interesting. We were the structural designers on the ship and when we saw her last week that flight deck hadn't been built yet." So much for THAT judge.
As for the boilers, they are, in fact, Babcock and Wilcox boilers. It is true you do not HAVE to run all 8 at the same time or at full pressure at the same time. This is technically true of any multi-boilered ship. But by necessity the Iowas had all 8 boilers on hot iron all the time except when tied up to a pier. Even in a slow cruise speed you have to run at least four to keep either the outboard propellers (numbers 1 & 4) turning or the inboard propellers (numbers 2 & 3) for proper rudder control. The exception is when a private shipyard reactivated one of the Iowas and screwed up the boilers so bad she barely limped back home on one screw.
But even under harbor exit, ALL 8 boilers are on hot iron and ready to go at any time. They have to be to provide the steam for the turbine powered generators and the heating systems throughout the ship. A lot of the electrical drain from the turbo-generators was for the seven new 125 ton air conditioning plants we put in them (plus a lot of deck mounted fan coil units). More electrical drain was for all the new Gee-Whiz black boxes, radar, radio, code machines, and closed circuit TV. We had to take over an entire berthing compartment just for the new radio comm space on main deck. We had to take over the Admiral's quarters on 02 level just for the new Combat Engagement Center and Spook Room. (I had to design the armor for all those spaces). Then there were the power requirements for the new missile installations and their support equipment. As every proposed Shipalt was reviewed, the first question asked was whether or not we had enough electrical reserve power to operate the new equipment. Of course, we did but to make sure we had all 8 boilers up and running with the forward and aft Emergency Diesel Generator rooms manned and ready to hit the ignition switch.
In one case we had a problem with getting enough Low Pressure air to operate some air hoists above 05 level. The hoists were for missile reloading. Then one of our piping techs (Danny Rios) had and astounding idea. We used the Medium Pressure air compressor and orificed it down to LP. The MP compressor was ONLY used to clear the smoke out of the barrels of the 16-inch guns when they fired. It was very doubtful that we would be firing those guns during a Tomahawk or Harpoon loadout, so it was the ideal solution as opposed to installing another LP air compressor higher up on the ship and providing electrical power to it.
However, with Battleships (as well as the older Aircraft Carriers) running with all boilers on hot iron had become almost SOP. The Nukies are something else I guess and I never got too involved with them except for some mast modifications.
Even on a one day family day cruise the New Jersey turned all four shafts. I know because I wound up as a ship's guide and took my family and friends down into the engine rooms to show them the shafts turning. However, I think she did cut down to only two shafts for the gun firing demonstrations.
The ONLY time I felt Missouri sort of lagging along was when we were coming in from a sea trial. Normally only the inboard or outboard screws were engaged but this time ONLY the port screws were used. And even then I think only one of them. The reason was that as we were approaching the Long Beach Breakwater, a pod of California Gray Whales was exiting along our Starboard side. So Captain Kais shut down the starboard screws so as not to drag one of the baby whales into it (the 18-foot diameter propeller wouldn't be damaged but the whale would be in very sorry shape). Steerage was pretty hard for the rudders so approach to the harbor was real slow. However, it gave a good chance for us to stand along the Starboard rails and look DOWN onto the whales that couldn't have been more than 30 feet from the ship.
So there. Yes, I have calmed down a bit after Allstate quickly replaced the broken window on my truck. And I'm back on my Coreg as well. I had forgotten to take it the other day.
I'm a bit confused - no surprise there - what's the disagreement here?
What kind of boilers are on the Iowas?
Babcock&Wilcox M type controlled superheat,Two furnaces ( fire boxes ) Saturated furnance and a super heat furnance. While only firing the saturated fire box your making saturated steam . Light off the super heater and...superhearted steam. On a un-controlled superheated boiler as those on the Coontz class DDGs, they are 1200 psi, all steam leaving the steam drum goes to the stainless steel superheater, to the main engines, a line is branched off and is directed to the desuperheater. on a B&W boiler the desuperheater is located in the steam drum on a Foster Wheeler boiler it is located in the mud drum, goes out to operate supporting 1200 psi aux. equipment ie... main feed pumps, forced draft blowers. Then reduced down to 600psi ( fire pumps, F.O. service pumps and feed booster pumps) and from there to 150 psi. The boiler has only one fire box, the superheater is located between the screen wall tubes and the generating tubes. The original disagreement, the boiler system.
odds and ends... 1200lb system like Leahy, Belknap, Charles Adams class ships, the main steam line to the desup usually "T" just off the main steam stop behind the boiler, lower level. It's the long horizontal "U" bend (expansion bend) of piping going back into the boiler. Main steam is also used for the soot blowers on 1200lb systems. 150lb steam (366 degrees) is also piped to the burners (atomizing steam) to mix with the fuel oil. 1200lb saturated and aux steam is 567 degrees and 1200 main is 940-950 degrees and if there's ever a leak, the people around have problems. And although it has nothing to do with conventional boilers, on the Garcia and Brooke Class ships with the pressure fired boilers, they have augmenting steam cutting right off the 1200 main line to 15lb by way of a huge flange and orifice plate. Augmenting steam is to "recharge" the main condenser when it runs out of auxilliary exhaust to supply auxilliaries like the main air ejector, salt water heater on evaps, gland sealing system and steam to heat feed water in the DA tank.
Now, back to Vegas for a few days....
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