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Not yet. That contract was to decide who was going to be in the shootoff with ERGM. The shoot off started in Oct. Havn't heard if they are still competing or iwho won.
(Side note) DefCon, Are you happy? I corrected a B.Smitty statement
And their extreme high cost each?. Maybe we should just give the military the right to print their own money until 2013 instead because thats just about what it amounts to. I would very much like to revisit this conversation in 2013 when DDX is delivered then we will really see how much the taxpayers money was wasted on expensive bombs, missles in a theater where 16" shells could have done the job but apparently with higher casualty rates. Then again war is hell for all involved.
Extremely high cost for which? I named a bunch of systems. ERGM? ANSR? GMLRS? Airpower? TLAMs?
ERGM and ANSR are supposed to be sub-$100k rounds (orignially sub-$50k). So is GMLRS.
Airpower has the option of dropping cheap iron bombs all the way up to pricey cruise missiles.
TLAMs are a bit more than a half million for the latest models.
Unguided 16" shells only have a range of 20-30nm and thus won't even meet the informal USMC/USN range reqs.
You have to go to more exotic rounds that would require the same type of GPS/INS guidance found on ERGM, ANSR and GMLRS to be even remotely accurate. Thus they would cost at LEAST as much.
I actually did not say this. I said GPS-guided projectiles would give you a 10m CEP (10-20m based on specs for ERGM).
I then went on to say that, IMHO, a 10m CEP is insufficient - be it for a 5", 155mm or especially 16" round - to ensure limited collateral damage in urban terrain, using a house next to a mosque as an example.
For this you need true precision weapons - the smaller, the better.
Now, as I said before, I don't know what the USMC/USN reqs are for this.
Let's settle this one right now.
You don't fire a 16-inch projectile into an urban area - GPS guided or not.
Agreed?
Originally posted by B.Smitty
Plus maybe we'll avoid storming opposed beaches.
No offense to the Marines, but that's not exactly a bad idea.
Originally posted by M21Sniper
The figures for the Thud are a bit misleading, as that does not include aircraft written off after returning to base, nor does it include cannibilization. Also, the F-105 pilots suffered horribly. By 1968(IIRC), the USAF was forced to start moving KC-135 pilots into F-105 seats- with minimal training.
True enough, many aircraft returned after "going Downtown" looking like Swiss Cheese. And I'm sure there were many pilots that looked or felt the same way as their beloved birds.
And it wasn't just the KC-135 pilots. They were pulling pilots out of practically every available billet in the CONUS to get butts in the seats of the fast-movers in Vietnam - the willing and the unwilling
Originally posted by M21Sniper
As far as aircraft lost since the end of nam, don't forget Yugoslavia and Beirut
Forget them? Not a chance bro, already covered them in a previous post :)
In fact, pilots from USS John F Kennedy were absolutely LIVID after that cluster-fucck over Lebanon, saying that naval gunfire (particularly USS New Jersey) should have hit the targets assigned to the fly-boys. Naval Aviators for the love of God, saying that a battleship should have hit their targets. (Yes, I have sources for this, I'm just a bit bushed at the moment...I'll post them if requested).
Originally posted by M21Sniper
ERGM is NOWHERE near ready for primetime, and even if it was, it is WHOLLY UNSUITED for most NGFS roles due to it's extremely low flight speed of 500kts. Further, even if it did work(which it does not), it has ALREADY cost MORE than the cost of fully modernizing and reactivating the two remaining Cat B Iowas. ANSR is an AGS munition, which means it will not be in the fleet until AGS is in the fleet, and AGS won't be in the fleet until DDX is in the fleet(2013 at the soonest).
Well said.
I remember back in the day on Warships1...ERGM was the Holy Grail of the anti-BB crowd.
I may not agree that battleships are absolutely vital in today's day and age, but ERGM was and is a sad, sick joke inflicted upon those desiring a real, usable, mission-capable surface gunfire support projectile....
...oh wait, the joke was inflicted upon the USMC.
And they are STILL waiting for that support.
Originally posted by M21Sniper
One could certainly point to every aircraft lost over Haiphong harbor(which is about 1,000) as unneccesary losses. A single Iowa can threaten the entire Haiphong port area, even today.
One wonders what aircraft losses over Vietnam stand at today if even 2 battleships were unleashed from 1965 onward.
And how many aviators were spared a firey death or an extended stay at the Hanoi Hilton....
Originally posted by M21Sniper
Defcon, i've already told ya once....GG has forgotten more about artillery systems than you'll likely ever know.
Claiming he doesn't know the difference between the various properties of explosive fillers is very stupid.
Defcon, I agree with Sniper.
The Gunny has been there and done that. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to arty. And he's the one autographing the tee-shirts.
He just needs the occasional history refresher...
*ducking for cover*
Originally posted by M21Sniper
Korea is IDEAL as a target for the Iowas, and that conflict is very likely. The Brits certainly would've found an Iowa EXTREMELY useful for their invasion of the falklands too. Coastal China would also be very vulnerable to BB 16" fire, and finally, if we did have to toss the Chinese out of Taiwan, almost the entire Island is in range of 16" fire.
So as can be seen, the Iowas would still be very useful against many potential(in fact the MOST LIKELY) enemies.
Absolutely agree!
I was trying to think of another country (besides Vietnam!) that was almost entirely North/South and almost completely NOT East/West.
The claim was made that 80-85 percent of all aircraft targets in Vietnam could be hit by a battleship...
...and you just can't shoot down those pesky 16-inch projectiles...
...nor hold their fire-controlmen hostage in Hanoi...
...nor charge the United States a couple million dolllars everytime you [can't] shoot one down....
...nor do a damn thing about that big black dragon that is belching fire and smoke right off your capital city's shoreline...
...damn!
Originally posted by Shipwreck
I see an image that says *M21 Sniper* and shows a rifle that is NOT an M21 by any stretch (perhaps this is humor).
Oh please don't tell me you just said that out loud....
Originally posted by Shipwreck
You are the one launching personal attacks and I should be the one banned for correcting some of the numerous inaccuracies/fallacies in your posts ???
How about this? Don't YOU question such an obviously long-time poster's obvious background in the US Army and both of you ease up a bit on the name-calling? ;)
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
I'm pretty sure BAT was cancelled. The USN also had a version using the SADARM munition mated with SM-2MR Block II missiles called the SM-4, and that has also been cancelled.
And again, wrt how many aircraft we've lost post vietnam, it is about 50, and would've easily paid for a new build Iowa.
A new build Iowa? What's the pricetag on that?
In any event, most (if not all) of those 50 aircraft were doing things that the 16 inchers on an Iowa would never be able to do.
Originally posted by M21Sniper
We're pretty good at taking down IADS, but we're not as good as we used to be, HARM has turned out to be a pretty big dissapointment, and we never did take down the Yugoslavian IADS.
We didn't, but they weren't able to stop us either.
In any event, without exotic rounds, an Iowa would've been worthless in that conflict too.
Let's settle this one right now.
You don't fire a 16-inch projectile into an urban area - GPS guided or not.
Well then I could pull up the RAND study done about 10 yrs ago about 65% of the worlds population moving or already living within 110 miles. (Dont quote me on miles, its late dont have the study with me). How because of urbanization the
Blitz couldn't take place mow. and yada yada yada.
But instead, I'll just say "Can't fire them into cities. You take all the fun away!"
No offense to the Marines, but that's not exactly a bad idea.
And has been our plan since the end of the cold war. That If we really need BBs to take this beach/effect this landing then we are in the wrong place.
Forget them? Not a chance bro, already covered them in a previous post :)
In fact, pilots from USS John F Kennedy were absolutely LIVID after that cluster-fucck over Lebanon, saying that naval gunfire (particularly USS New Jersey) should have hit the targets assigned to the fly-boys. Naval Aviators for the love of God, saying that a battleship should have hit their targets. (Yes, I have sources for this, I'm just a bit bushed at the moment...I'll post them if requested).
Yes, but that was 83. Syria had one of the thickest SAM zones in the world. The soviets were force feeding them to get real world data on their missiles.
We were also flying F-4s A-4/6/ and 7s with dumb bombs. Now days to take out the bunker that the Jersey destroyed a F-18 would drop one or two JDAM-ER (24 miles) or a JSOW. Would never go "Feet Dry" Its a much different environment then when the Jersey was shooting like crap in the Root. (Had to throw that in )
...oh wait, the joke was inflicted upon the USMC.
And they are STILL waiting for that support.
Not really, For our lip service we got new toys to play with. Osprey, AAAV (has new name , can't remember right now) LPD-17. And Excalaber. No one in the MC wants BBs back. Before they pushed for BBs we would be screaming for MLRS/Himars
Defcon, I agree with Sniper.
The Gunny has been there and done that. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to arty. And he's the one autographing the tee-shirts.
He just needs the occasional history refresher...
*ducking for cover*
No need to duck, You are the one that pointed out that bad info I posted. Rates you 1 freeby. (and ONLY one) (well OK 2, since you are a MOD)
Yes, but that was 83. Syria had one of the thickest SAM zones in the world. The soviets were force feeding them to get real world data on their missiles.
We were also flying F-4s A-4/6/ and 7s with dumb bombs. Now days to take out the bunker that the Jersey destroyed a F-18 would drop one or two JDAM-ER (24 miles) or a JSOW. Would never go "Feet Dry"
I was merely responding to Sniper's "don't forget Beirut" post. :)
Originally posted by Gun Grape
Its a much different environment then when the Jersey was shooting like crap in the Root. (Had to throw that in )
No worries. She was shooting like crap. Hardly a surprise.
The good news is, it was a totally curable problem. Not an inherent problem with the platform. :)
Originally posted by Gun Grape
No need to duck, You are the one that pointed out that bad info I posted. Rates you 1 freeby. (and ONLY one) (well OK 2, since you are a MOD)
Let's call it just one.
I'd rather not claim a freebie based on modship.
I'm simply a fellow poster that gets to have fun taking out the trash. :)
“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
We do not use MOA when discussing indirect fire weapons. However you extrapulate the data to figure it out if you wanted.
In Artillery and NGF it is expressed as Probable Error in 2D or Spherical Error Probability. 1 PE is a distance in which 50% of the rounds will impact in relation to the target.
These are expressed as PE range, PE deflection and PE Height Of Burst.
Whoever wrote that OSD report from "My favorite web site" was mistaken.
Where is the end of it? I only got 12 pages. I'd like to know who wrote it.
(edit. To clarify, 1 PE range will have 25% of rounds over the MPI, 25% below)
Well then I could pull up the RAND study done about 10 yrs ago about 65% of the worlds population moving or already living within 110 miles. (Dont quote me on miles, its late dont have the study with me). How because of urbanization the
Blitz couldn't take place mow. and yada yada yada.
During WW2 we firebombed Tokyo killing over 200,000 Japanese civillians.
When in a state of total war, circumstances change and morals decline. War doesn't determine who is right or who is wrong, war determines who is left.
I dunno, figure 5 billion in 2005 dollars, give or take.
Figure out the cost of the roughly 50 aircraft we've lost in that time, and apply 2005 price tags to them as well, i'm pretty sure it would pay for the iowa.
As far as those planes doing something the iowas couldn't, that's probably not true seeing as how the BBs each mounted 32 TLAMs with a roughly 1000nm action radius. Of course the flip side of that is also true, there are a few things an iowa can do that no amount of TACAIR can match.
Not really, For our lip service we got new toys to play with. Osprey, AAAV (has new name , can't remember right now) LPD-17. And Excalaber. No one in the MC wants BBs back. Before they pushed for BBs we would be screaming for MLRS/Himars
The Commandant of the USMC has stated the exact opposite publically, many times.
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