India's indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant ready for sea-trials

[Officer of Engineers]

I have heard this a 1000 times before. India did this alone. Had zero help. Yadda. Yadda. Only to learn later, there is a hell of a lot of foreign help. You mean to tell me that India did not study Russian reactors up the ying-yang while they had them? The very fact that you're sending your crews to Russia to be trained ... even for this new boat ... says a hell of a lot ... that you're following their operational procedures? Why? If this is your boat from top to finish, it should be all new procedures. New qualifications. New books.

My uncoth language cuts through the bullshit.

[S R]

You consider yourself to be a more authoritative source of information on the topic than the guy in charge of designing the reactor ? On what basis ?

India's been building reactors on it's own for half a century. Who did the US take help from when they built one for Nautilus ? No one ? You were somehow better at sub reactor miniaturization in 1954 than we are after 50 years of experience at reactor development ? 'Non whites can't do it without our help' is a line of argument that appeals to personal bias rather than to sense.

Uncouth language does not substitute for anything. Your tagline says 'Military Professional'. Neither your language nor attitude befits it.

[antimony]

And Pakistan stated first use is a demonstration. Not an actual target hit. A warning shot.

Haven't we discussed this before - if 1 flies, they all fly?
How will India determine what is a warning shot and what is not? Any nuke, demo or not, will surely be met with a nuke (non demo) response. Which leads me to believe that whatever Pakistan communicates publicly about their doctrine is a farce

[Genosaurer]

I genuinely hope that the Indians aren't really getting much advice from the Russians, or are taking what they have been told with a massive grain of salt. The Russians have a frankly terrifying history of nuclear submarine accidents, many of which are literally inconceivable from the standpoint of an American operator because of our basic system design tenets and operating procedures. I almost think they'd be better developing their own independent methods based on their commercial operating experience.

[Officer of Engineers]

You consider yourself to be a more authoritative source of information on the topic than the guy in charge of designing the reactor ? On what basis ?

On the basis that your crews are being trained in Russia. The Russians should have zero clue on how your reactor is set up and what are the safety protocals.

And I know the Russians gave you exactly ZERO help in designing the reactor. The NPT and the NSG forbid it ... but that does not mean that you did not study up the ying-yang when you had access to them.

How else could the Russians know so much that they're able to train your crews?

Uncouth language does not substitute for anything. Your tagline says 'Military Professional'. Neither your language nor attitude befits it.

Who cares what you think? We're bunch of old men here.

[Officer of Engineers]

Haven't we discussed this before - if 1 flies, they all fly?
How will India determine what is a warning shot and what is not? Any nuke, demo or not, will surely be met with a nuke (non demo) response. Which leads me to believe that whatever Pakistan communicates publicly about their doctrine is a farce

Pakistani historic military behaviour is not exactly a model for superb thinking.

LGen Lodi should have been retired and out of the loop by the time of the Pak nuke tests and I don't think he was ever exposed to nukes as part of his TOA and his quoting of a foreign schoolar reflects more wishful thinking than any speaking from experience.

That being said, he ain't far off.

A more insightful document, The Evolution of Pakistan’s Nuclear Doctrine by BGen Salik.

Pakistan is dead scared of Indian nukes. Pakistan does not have the resources to match India nuke for nuke ... and she already made trade offs. In the public sphere, she did the one thing that put fear into India ... she has more nukes than India. She did this by going for more but lesser bang nukes while India has bigger bang but fewer nukes.

The problem is ... especially with the NSG deal ... India is now capable of outproducing Pakistan in fissile materials.

So, here's the challenge. You stated outright that you will go first in a nuke exchange ... but how do you avoid inviting an Indian nuclear response.

You tell the Indians when and where you're going to blow up a nuke and that means at least 72 hours before the Indians can reach that point (Corps requring 72 hours to execute any order including stop-in-place).

[antimony]

Pakistani historic military behaviour is not exactly a model for superb thinking.

LGen Lodi should have been retired and out of the loop by the time of the Pak nuke tests and I don't think he was ever exposed to nukes as part of his TOA and his quoting of a foreign schoolar reflects more wishful thinking than any speaking from experience.

That being said, he ain't far off.

A more insightful document, The Evolution of Pakistan’s Nuclear Doctrine by BGen Salik.

One of the things that I am seeing on the Indian side is a casual disregard for Pakistani red lines. One former Indian diplomat (G Parthasarathy) recently stated that both he and his counterparts across the border knew what the real red lines were, that they were not what is communicated publicly and that he was not too concerned about it. Several other retd. Indian General Officers have stated that there exists a space for a limited conflict within a nuke environment, e.g. Kargil. In other words, India thinks that regardless of what Pakistan says in public, she is not very likely to break the nuclear bottle at flimsy pretexts. Given the fact that their establishment is filled with highly self serving types from the military, the feudal houses and the judiciary, that may be likely

Pakistan is dead scared of Indian nukes. Pakistan does not have the resources to match India nuke for nuke ... and she already made trade offs. In the public sphere, she did the one thing that put fear into India ... she has more nukes than India. She did this by going for more but lesser bang nukes while India has bigger bang but fewer nukes.

The problem is ... especially with the NSG deal ... India is now capable of outproducing Pakistan in fissile materials.

So, here's the challenge. You stated outright that you will go first in a nuke exchange ... but how do you avoid inviting an Indian nuclear response.

You tell the Indians when and where you're going to blow up a nuke and that means at least 72 hours before the Indians can reach that point (Corps requiring 72 hours to execute any order including stop-in-place).

That premise seems...silly. First of all, you burn your own country, for what? Second, you assume that your enemy will not be able to move fast enough to get hit. But the very idea of an Indian Cold Start is contingent of having smaller, faster IBG type formations. The last time India moved Corps level formations was in 2001 and we know what happened.

[Officer of Engineers]

First of all, you burn your own country, for what? Second, you assume that your enemy will not be able to move fast enough to get hit.

I can think of one. A big bridge to one of my cities. Serves two purposes. Destroy your axis of advance and a big warning.

But the very idea of an Indian Cold Start is contingent of having smaller, faster IBG type formations. The last time India moved Corps level formations was in 2001 and we know what happened.

A division also have limited penetrating depth and a brigade even shallower still.

That being said, a divisional target is a brigade and a brigade target is a battalion. You can see neither target would mean much to Pakistan except loss of face.

[Deltacamelately]

I can think of one. A big bridge to one of my cities. Serves two purposes. Destroy your axis of advance and a big warning.

A division also have limited penetrating depth and a brigade even shallower still.

That being said, a divisional target is a brigade and a brigade target is a battalion. You can see neither target would mean much to Pakistan except loss of face.

Hehhe.

[Deltacamelately]

You consider yourself to be a more authoritative source of information on the topic than the guy in charge of designing the reactor ? On what basis ?

India's been building reactors on it's own for half a century. Who did the US take help from when they built one for Nautilus ? No one ? You were somehow better at sub reactor miniaturization in 1954 than we are after 50 years of experience at reactor development ? 'Non whites can't do it without our help' is a line of argument that appeals to personal bias rather than to sense.

Uncouth language does not substitute for anything. Your tagline says 'Military Professional'. Neither your language nor attitude befits it.

S R,

You will have to spend couple of years to read-up on the Colonel's posts fully, so as to appreciate what are his basis. :)

[Officer of Engineers]

Actually, I will take this on!

You consider yourself to be a more authoritative source of information on the topic than the guy in charge of designing the reactor ? On what basis ?

Where did this guy got his nuclear physics degree from? It ain't from an Indian University.

India's been building reactors on it's own for half a century.

Yeah, one of your first reactors was a CANDU.

Who did the US take help from when they built one for Nautilus ? No one ?

The USN did not send her crew to Russia for training.

You were somehow better at sub reactor miniaturization in 1954 than we are after 50 years of experience at reactor development ? 'Non whites can't do it without our help' is a line of argument that appeals to personal bias rather than to sense.

And yet, you sent your crews to a "White" training centre. BTW, I ain't "White."

Uncouth language does not substitute for anything. Your tagline says 'Military Professional'. Neither your language nor attitude befits it.

Again, I don't freaking care! I'm old and I'm retired and I have more than earned the right to call bullshit on this forum when I see it.

You, however, do have the right to prove me wrong.

Prove me wrong that the Russians don't know shit about your reactor!

[Officer of Engineers]

S R,

You will have to spend couple of years to read-up on the Colonel's posts fully, so as to appreciate what are his basis. :)

My axiom. If I can figured it out, so can the other guy.

[Deltacamelately]

Sir,

How noisy can this thing go? Also at this size why isn't this capable of carrying 12+ MRBMs?

[Officer of Engineers]

How noisy can this thing go?

That would depend on how fast it is going and where are they in the thermal layers. Vis-a-vi the Russians and the Chinese, I say on par with each of them. But the Americans could hear you miles away.

Also at this size why isn't this capable of carrying 12+ MRBMs?

At this point, I'm thinking testbed and learning curve. The Chinese first SSBN could only carry two missiles ... and more noisy than a brothel throwing an orgy.

[ace16807]

That would depend on how fast it is going and where are they in the thermal layers. Vis-a-vi the Russians and the Chinese, I say on par with each of them. But the Americans could hear you miles away.

At this point, I'm thinking testbed and learning curve. The Chinese first SSBN could only carry two missiles ... and more noisy than a brothel throwing an orgy.

You're confusing the PLA(N)'s Golf SSB and their Xia SSBN. The Golf had two missile tubes, the Xia had 12.

Re quietness- Chinese and Russian SSN/SSBNs are not close to being on par in terms of relative detectability. The Delta and Victor SSNs perhaps, but the Akulas and Severodvinsk are much quieter. Without actually knowing any technical specifications or decent pictures it's not really possible to judge how noisy/quiet the Arihant is. But if "first shots" at SSN/SSBNs are any predictor, it's probably on the loud side of the spectrum.