New Japanese helicopter destroyer - Largest ship since World War II

[tbm3fan]

Though technically a destroyer, some experts believe the new Japanese ship could potentially be used in the future to launch fighter jets or other aircraft that have the ability to take off vertically. That would be a departure for Japan, which has one of the best equipped and best trained naval forces in the Pacific but which has not sought to build aircraft carriers of its own because of constitutional restrictions that limit its military forces to a defensive role.

and then

The giant vessel was named Izumo, namesake of a Japanese cruiser once used during the invasion of China in the early 20th century.

[...]Being able to accommodate 14 helicopters, the ship is also available for the US Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft. With minor modifications, it can be remodeled to a fully-functioning aircraft carrier, which is generally considered as offensive weapons and therefore prohibited by the Japanese constitution.

The Article 9 of Japan’s current constitution reads that “land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained.”

So launching such a de facto aircraft carrier is in flagrant violation of the pacifist clause, and another alarming sign as the Japanese government is mulling to ditch the pacifist constitution and bolster the country’s military forces.

[...]Japan must reflect upon its history of aggression, stop rearmament, and return to the path of peace.

If I am not mistaken but hasn't China always said their Navy was for defensive purposes even with their carrier? The world of double standards.

Then the big deal with her stepping away from the "pacifist" road. I'm sure China would love to see Japan to stay on that road. Unfortunately, the world has evolved in ways no one could foresee in 1946.

"The turn to militarism is paralleled by Abe's economic agenda, or "Abenomics," based on devaluing the yen to undermine its trade rivals, especially China and South Korea, and the imposition of savage austerity measures on working people," said the research organization.

Who is this Center for Research Globalization organization?

Anyway can't wait to see what happens on Aug. 15th and who shows at that Japanese military shrine. I know many get bent out of shape about 14 war criminals while ignoring the other 2,000,000 Japanese buried there.

[Skywatcher]

Anyway can't wait to see what happens on Aug. 15th and who shows at that Japanese military shrine. I know many get bent out of shape about 14 war criminals while ignoring the other 2,000,000 Japanese buried there.

Considering who those war criminal scum are, it's pretty logical.

[Bigfella]

Anyway can't wait to see what happens on Aug. 15th and who shows at that Japanese military shrine.

He isn't going....this year at least.

SENIOR supporters of hardline Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe have joined their leader in letting it be known they will not visit the Yasukuni war shrine on August 15.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

I know many get bent out of shape about 14 war criminals while ignoring the other 2,000,000 Japanese buried there

Tough shit. Blame the LDP & the priests at the shrine. This isn't just a place of memorial, it is a key player in Japan's long running historical revisionism. They chose to play politics, they rightly get spanked for it. I feel sorry for the families of the others who are there that the people who run the shrine & run the nation put their own agendas ahead of honouring the spirits of all those others.

If German politicians made visits to a memorial that specifically remembered the likes of Hitler & his senior Nazis (a very good comparison in this case) and indulged in holocaust denial & historical revisionism there would be outrage from all over Europe & beyond.

[tbm3fan]

Tough shit. Blame the LDP & the priests at the shrine. This isn't just a place of memorial, it is a key player in Japan's long running historical revisionism. They chose to play politics, they rightly get spanked for it. I feel sorry for the families of the others who are there that the people who run the shrine & run the nation put their own agendas ahead of honouring the spirits of all those others.

.

Well it is all very convoluted especially since the Shrine dates to 1869. The 14, out of 2,466,532, apparently were enshrined in 1978-79. Without those 14 it would be a large military cemetery like many others.

While revisionist concerning their history it doesn't surprise me. When has any Asian nation ever admitted to being at fault? Hell, my wife being Filipina, has a very hard time admitting she was wrong and it definitely deals with face or "hiya". What they do, and she does, is beat around the bush with wording that almost implies it was your fault for making them do what they did.

[Goatboy]

The Yasakuni Shrine "issue" seems so simple to fix for many. It's always this knee jerk "Why doesn't Japan simply remove the 14 war criminals' "souls", (their plaques) from the Shrine. Well, one could discuss that recommendation in myriad multidisciplinary fashion, but to isolate just one: From a Japanese legal standpoint, the government can't just waltz in and "do stuff". Why? The Japanese Constitution has a separation of religion and state clause set in stone, exactly like the U.S. Constitution (small wonder) -- and the Japanese government follows these rules. This "freedom" from governmental interference in matters of religion does deserve our respect, certainly more deserving than Chinese governmental interference in religious matters in China, regardless of the existence of war criminals interned at Yakasuni Shrine. And the shrine is unequivocally a religious place, like ... say the St. Patrick's Cathedral in Manhattan.

While I hope something can be worked out to remove these 14 from the registry there, I'm not going to pretend that Japanese go to the shrine to worship these 14. That's a ridiculous notion. The 2.5 million Japanese war dead souls resting there outweigh those 14.

[desertswo]

Hell, my wife being Filipina, has a very hard time admitting she was wrong and it definitely deals with face or "hiya". What they do, and she does, is beat around the bush with wording that almost implies it was your fault for making them do what they did.

Growing up in San Diego where many of my friends were Filipino, serving in the Navy at a time when a large percentage of sailors were Philippine nationals, and last but not least, basically calling Subic Bay "home" for a number of years, one learns that lesson well. I would add to your description avoiding the distress to others that having to tell someone "No" causes. That also causes a loss of face, so rather than say, "No," they say, "Yes but . . ." If the typical yokel from Pigs Knuckle, Kansas isn't clued in, he can come away from a discussion with his dispersing clerk with a very different interpretation of the information given him, than what the DK1 who was born and raised in Risal Province, RP actually intended. Then he wonders why a chunk of his pay has disappeared. At a time when 90% of my Electricians Mates were Filipino, I learned to listen real good. ;)

Now, placing that sort of, as you put it, "beating around the bush" into the realm of international politics and diplomacy, and you have a real recipe for misunderstanding that can have consequences far worse than someone's pay being withheld.

[TopHatter]

If the typical yokel from Pigs Knuckle, Kansas isn't clued in...

Oh man I am dying from laughter right here at work

[Loke]

I may be wrong but I have the impression that "loss of face" could potentially be even more important in China than in Japan? Or is it roughly at the same level?

OTOH I believe that, compared to most Western countries, China and Japan are both more risk-averse, but I may be wrong?

[blidgepump]

Saving face is ultimate....

The Yasakuni Shrine "issue" seems so simple to fix for many.

The Pacific Rim grows smaller each day. BUT the matter of saving face has never been larger! :slap:

Take the example of the Oriental vet who cannot insult the dog owner that his pet cannot be cured and is going to die.
Does the vet tell the owner that his dog is terminal? No! To commit that act would be an insult to the owners intelligence.

So what does the Vet do? Inform the owner that the pet has a "cold" and a series of test(s) must be performed to determine the exact type of cold the animal is suffering from.

Now apply the larger geo political mindset and it is no wonder we bang our head against the wall trying to understand ( and of course there is the language thingy, too)... :bang:

[Ytlas]

The Pacific Rim grows smaller each day. BUT the matter of saving face has never been larger! :slap:

Take the example of the Oriental vet who cannot insult the dog owner that his pet cannot be cured and is going to die.
Does the vet tell the owner that his dog is terminal? No! To commit that act would be an insult to the owners intelligence.

So what does the Vet do? Inform the owner that the pet has a "cold" and a series of test(s) must be performed to determine the exact type of cold the animal is suffering from.

Now apply the larger geo political mindset and it is no wonder we bang our head against the wall trying to understand ( and of course there is the language thingy, too)... :bang:

"Oriental" is used to describe objects. "Asian" is used to describe people.

[blidgepump]

i have lost face...

"Oriental" is used to describe objects. "Asian" is used to describe people.

ソーリー

Sōrī

[Albany Rifles]

If the typical yokel from Pigs Knuckle, Kansas isn't clued in...

We use Buzzard Puckey, Idaho.

As for the entire "boo hoo....commemorate what the nasty Americans did to us in August 1945" crap.....


Well, I'll listen and acknowledge all of that when the Japanese Royal Family stand up and apologize for the role the royal family had in the Nanking/Nanjing Massacre.

Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention all of the other atrocities across the "Great East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere".

No axe to grind against the people of Japan but my mother lost 2 cousins in the Pacific and a brother-in-law who still has horrible PTSD from his time in the Solomons and Okinawa as a Marine.

[Officer of Engineers]

I may be wrong but I have the impression that "loss of face" could potentially be even more important in China than in Japan? Or is it roughly at the same level?

It's a goddamned excuse. They'll lose face before they'll lose money. Japanese history is filled with stories of sepuku but how many samuaris turned ronin? Or let's use the true word, mercenary?

China did Tianamen Square and while there is some truth to their stories of austerity to maintain their pride, the actual truth was that they sent their Ambassadors and their representatives world wide begging for orders at unbelievable prices just so that they can keep their factories open.

Tet, LB 1 and 2, forced Hanoi to beg for peace. Lying, underhanded, deceptive, perhaps, but they did go on hands and knees begging for the attacks to be stopped.

And even Japan, how much more loss of face was there for MacArthur to tower over tiny Hirehitto?

Hope you all get the point, losing face is not the end-all, be-all of Asian culture. Losing everything is, just like everybody else.

So, within context, both China and Japan are playing this face game because it gains them some diplomatic points but have no illusions that they willing to risk war over face.

[Skywatcher]

The Yasakuni Shrine "issue" seems so simple to fix for many. It's always this knee jerk "Why doesn't Japan simply remove the 14 war criminals' "souls", (their plaques) from the Shrine. Well, one could discuss that recommendation in myriad multidisciplinary fashion, but to isolate just one: From a Japanese legal standpoint, the government can't just waltz in and "do stuff". Why? The Japanese Constitution has a separation of religion and state clause set in stone, exactly like the U.S. Constitution (small wonder) -- and the Japanese government follows these rules. This "freedom" from governmental interference in matters of religion does deserve our respect, certainly more deserving than Chinese governmental interference in religious matters in China, regardless of the existence of war criminals interned at Yakasuni Shrine. And the shrine is unequivocally a religious place, like ... say the St. Patrick's Cathedral in Manhattan.

While I hope something can be worked out to remove these 14 from the registry there, I'm not going to pretend that Japanese go to the shrine to worship these 14. That's a ridiculous notion. The 2.5 million Japanese war dead souls resting there outweigh those 14.

Then Japanese politicians shouldn't be surprised by all the crap they receive. They're free to visit (or not visit), and other countries are quite free to ostracize them for it.

After all, nobody would accept the idea of German leaders visiting a war cemetery/memorial that proclaimed Henrich Himmler and Ernest Kaltenbrunner as "heroes of the German people"?

[Bigfella]

Then Japanese politicians shouldn't be surprised by all the crap they receive. They're free to visit (or not visit), and other countries are quite free to ostracize them for it.

After all, nobody would accept the idea of German leaders visiting a war cemetery/memorial that proclaimed Henrich Himmler and Ernest Kaltenbrunner as "heroes of the German people"?

Yup.