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  • PLAN force projection sans carriers?

    Earlier this year I wrote a paper in response to James Holmes' "China and Imperial Germany" article arguing that the PLAN in particular currently doesn't pose, nor will it pose in the future, as significant threat to the USN as the Kaiserliche Marine did to the RN during the turn of the 20th century up to WW1.

    As part of my concluding remarks I speculated the purpose of their current carrier program and, in a larger sense, their aspirations of greater projection capabilities. However, that brought me to a question that I didn't quite answer in the paper. Why bother with a significant carrier program at the moment? Granted, a carrier is the epitome of naval power projection and the PLAN's carrier program is more or less the public poster child of their growing capabilities. But from a pragmatic stand point, how useful would a carrier or possibily in the near future a few carriers be? The PLAN would be at a significant disadvantage re carrier numbers for the near future when matched against the USN. Clearly, they've been working to narrow that gap by developing their infamous "carrier-killers", but no doubt their carriers are just as vulnerable as oursare, if not more so.

    I suppose what I'm getting at is, is a legitimate carrier program for the PLAN necessary? I went on further in my paper speculating that the PLAN might be better off allocating resources to developing amphibious capabilities through more LPDs etc. The PRC would like to portray itself as being nowhere near as "imperialistic" as the US in their regional and international influence, but carriers are inherently a highly visible, offensive asset. On the other hand, if it enhanced its amphibious capabilities through LPDs, LHAs and the sort, they not only avoid the public exposure of wanting to build its offensive naval capabilities (although admittedly they lose the public appearance of building its naval capabilities) but they also assets more suited for MOOTW abroad as well as build a more credible threat in the Taiwan straits as a gambling chip.

    This idea might be complete madness, but thoughts?

  • #2
    Interesting thoughts and I'd be curious to read your whole article.
    The problem with your presumtion is that a rising China will always care about its ''benevolent'' image.Soft power is so much easier to apply when backed by hard power.The reverse,however isn't true.So a carrier is a much more useful tool than any other vessel,that may look less threatening.CV's are also as good as any,if not better for any type of ops,including mootw etc...

    What I found interesting in American comments wrt rising China is the eternal discussion of whether China will lock horns with US or will share the world and live in a kumbaya.I believe neither stands true.There is no place for kumbaya in real world politics and strategy.There is also no need for China to directly face the US to gain the upper hand.They need however to secure their maritime links with their protectorates/colonies in Africa and their energy sources in the ME.In that regard,Chinese navy may turn out to be more geared against India than US. Indirect maneuver at grand strategic level
    Carrier program serves them well in that direction.US and the world fretting about its purpose also serves them well since it provides cover.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #3
      Power projection in their home waters and for resources but doubful in others. There are several factors to consider...Economy is a big one if not the most important. A small mention are these carrier killers, especially when they have no idea of what it would take to sink one. Just getting one there is going to be an entire uphill battle in itself not to mention the repercussions of such actions simultaniously.

      Keep this thought in mind though where it comes to "carrier killing", The Chinese may think they know how to sink or kill one. But the US knows how to sink one and have sunk many from WWII forward to present day.;)
      Last edited by Dreadnought; 10 Jun 11,, 19:04.
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ace16807 View Post
        However, that brought me to a question that I didn't quite answer in the paper. Why bother with a significant carrier program at the moment? Granted, a carrier is the epitome of naval power projection and the PLAN's carrier program is more or less the public poster child of their growing capabilities. But from a pragmatic stand point, how useful would a carrier or possibily in the near future a few carriers be? The PLAN would be at a significant disadvantage re carrier numbers for the near future when matched against the USN. Clearly, they've been working to narrow that gap by developing their infamous "carrier-killers", but no doubt their carriers are just as vulnerable as oursare, if not more so.

        You don't get carriers and automaticly become proficent in their use. Its a great time for them to get them. This way they wll have time to develope how they will use them in the future and become proficent in day to day carrier operations.

        Better to learn this before you need to use it.

        Right now there are 2 countries that know how to operate Aircraft carriers. The US and France. Its a good time for China to learn.

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        • #5
          I suppose I mis-presented my thoughts as I don't mean to say that the PLAN should forgo a carrier program entirely. Rather, I'm wondering if it's more practical for the PLAN to make significant strides in amphibious capabilities and thus use LPDs and LHAs as the primary means of power projection in the near future rather than throwing every resource that have at a carrier program. In the meantime, the carrier would be used to perfect techniques as GG noted, but it would not be the primary means of projection until the PLAN reached a level of acceptable proficiency. Ideally from the PLAN's standpoint, they would do both, but significant predicament is the limited resources available to the PLAN, as AFAIK they do not receive nearly as much support as the PLA and PLAAF receive.

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          • #6
            Building LHA, LPD without carriers is like making APC without MBT. Make little sense

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            • #7
              Originally posted by drhuy View Post
              Building LHA, LPD without carriers is like making APC without MBT. Make little sense

              1: You didn't read all the posts before posting yourself did you. I'm pretty sure I clarified myself in saying that the PLAN shouldn't just forgo a carrier program.
              2: That's a poor analogy. LHAs, LPDs and carriers are all really just really big APCs in some sense. Without support, both are very vulnerable.
              3: You do realize that the USN fields ESGs right? Do they provide the full range of capabilities that a CSG can provide? No. Can they operate independently? Yes.
              Last edited by ace16807; 10 Jun 11,, 20:46.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                You don't get carriers and automaticly become proficent in their use. Its a great time for them to get them. This way they wll have time to develope how they will use them in the future and become proficent in day to day carrier operations.

                Better to learn this before you need to use it.

                Right now there are 2 countries that know how to operate Aircraft carriers. The US and France. Its a good time for China to learn.
                Sir, don't Brazil and India operate their own carriers? They may be smaller than US carriers but are still conventional.

                Italy, Spain, Thailand, and UK all operate STOVL carriers.

                I am not sure about the Russian carrier.

                I agree completely with your point that China should learn right now than wait to learn. It's better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #9
                  Once the AdmG gets inducted into IN, IN will join the ranks of US and France of operating aircraft carriers.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ace16807 View Post
                    I suppose I mis-presented my thoughts as I don't mean to say that the PLAN should forgo a carrier program entirely. Rather, I'm wondering if it's more practical for the PLAN to make significant strides in amphibious capabilities and thus use LPDs and LHAs as the primary means of power projection in the near future rather than throwing every resource that have at a carrier program. In the meantime, the carrier would be used to perfect techniques as GG noted, but it would not be the primary means of projection until the PLAN reached a level of acceptable proficiency. Ideally from the PLAN's standpoint, they would do both, but significant predicament is the limited resources available to the PLAN, as AFAIK they do not receive nearly as much support as the PLA and PLAAF receive.
                    I would say having a carrier is a prestige thing. It speaks of national might. China is all about national pride. This program will serve both as a tool for learning and an internal propaganda tool. Will it be able to compete directly against the USN? Probably not for 50 years.

                    However, this carrier could be useful in regional issues. Brazil has a carrier and Argentina used to have one. India has a carrier. They aren't meant to compete with the USN, but to intimidate neighbors.
                    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      Sir, don't Brazil and India operate their own carriers? They may be smaller than US carriers but are still conventional.
                      Not sure who this question is direced towards. I'm not a sir. I work for a living.

                      Neither of the 2 countries have them in operation at this time. Should be soon that the San Paulo becomes operational again though

                      Italy, Spain, Thailand, and UK all operate STOVL carriers.

                      I am not sure about the Russian carrier.
                      All baby carriers or LPDs as we call them. Not a power projection force. Useful for NEOs and air support of troops where the enemy isn't. The "Harrier Carrier" is only good if you have real aircraft carriers or other means of theater air support avaliable.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                        Once the AdmG gets inducted into IN, IN will join the ranks of US and France of operating aircraft carriers.
                        Hehehehehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah? Before or after India lands a man on the moon?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                          Once the AdmG gets inducted into IN, IN will join the ranks of US and France of operating aircraft carriers.
                          along with the British, and either the HMS Queen Elizabeth or HMS Prince of Wales...

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            Not sure who this question is direced towards. I'm not a sir. I work for a living.
                            Work for a living should be good enough to address you as "sir."

                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            Neither of the 2 countries have them in operation at this time. Should be soon that the San Paulo becomes operational again though
                            I did not know Sao Paulo is not operational right now.

                            INS Viraat should be operational right now. Unfortunately I had forgotten the ex-HMS Hermes was converted to STOVL carrier long ago.

                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            All baby carriers or LPDs as we call them. Not a power projection force. Useful for NEOs and air support of troops where the enemy isn't. The "Harrier Carrier" is only good if you have real aircraft carriers or other means of theater air support avaliable.
                            I see your point. But is a STOVL carrier really that much less capable than a conventional carrier of approximate size?
                            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dundonrl View Post
                              along with the British, and either the HMS Queen Elizabeth or HMS Prince of Wales...

                              Brazil's Sao Paulo as well thought they still had her in limited services for pilot training. The site I found seems pretty up to date and listing her as in service.

                              http://aircraftcarrier1945.blogspot....y-country.html
                              Last edited by Dreadnought; 10 Jun 11,, 23:06.
                              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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