Ask An Expert- Naval Forces

[JA Boomer]

Very informative. The HMCS Protecteur recently had to be towed back to Pearl. The first attempt was made by the Ticonderoga-class USS Chosin, but the cable broke and they dispatched a fleet ocean tug to complete the job.

What's the difference between a fleet ocean tug and a rescue and salvage ship?

[Albany Rifles]

Sir....dumbass that I am I thought fleet tugs were in the UNREP Group....must be stuck in my World War 2 mindset. That was may assumption. Though I also figured the AKs, etc would work based on what you were thinking I was thinking.

Thanks

[desertswo]

A newbie question...

Why all that extra security and care around the gears and having everything secured and tied to lines to prevent anything being lost? What would happen if you were to lose something there such as a wrench or say a hat or a nail? I am curious as to what kind of forces are involved in this and what it could mean in terms of catastrophic damage.

Thanks in advance and appreciate the time to answer my question.

There didn't used to be that sort of security surrounding the reduction gear for either the main engines or SSTGs. Then Vietnam happened. Disgruntled crew members who didn't want to do their six to nine months cutting donuts in the South China Sea took to literally "monkey wrenching" their own ship's reduction gear. In WWII, no one would have dared thought of sabotaging their own ship (or if they did, we were never allowed to know about it), if for no other reason than they would have been hanged, literally, for their actions. Morality and ethics changed across the board during the Vietnam War. Sailors who had no interest in doing what they signed up to do would open up the inspection ports, dump various hard objects in, close it back up, and wait. These gears are actually very robust and they aren't damaged easily, but a bucket of nuts and bolts, a few hammers and wrenches, etc., and a multi-million dollar warship just became a very expensive, if somewhat ungainly, paperweight. So, now days, those inspection ports are not only padlocked shut with very expensive, very sturdy, high security padlocks; but those padlocks are lead wire sealed with the Chief Engineer's personal "chop" on the lead seal so that one can readily tell if it's been tampered with. That is how seriously we take these things.

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, but most people are not aware that the Navy does not actually own the main reduction gear in its warships. No, in a contractual relationship that probably predates WWII at least, manufacturers like GE, Westinghouse, and DeLaval own the gear, and the major maintenance performed on it. By "major" maintenance, I am referring to those activities that require a shipyard environment and may require that the gear be un-shipped for machining, etc. The gear is "leased" to the Navy on a long-term arrangement that is subsumed in the construction contract. So anyway, if we have a problem with the reduction gear, we run squealing to GE and they come and do whatever needs doing. It's already paid for, and indeed, there are certain things we are not even to touch. As Chief Engineer, my duties included the internal inspection of the gear casing, the lube oil sump, and the gear teeth themselves. Other than maybe changing out a pinion or spline gear bearing, we didn't touch those damn reduction gear.

If some damage does occur to the gear that is clearly not "an act of God" (a cause still found in those various tech manuals), that is cause for an Article 32 Investigation. For those not familiar with the military legal system, an Article 32 is basically the equivalent of a grand jury, collecting evidence, and then deciding whether there is sufficient cause to bring charges against an individual or individuals in the case. The investigation will be led by a knowledgeable officer not otherwise involved in the engineering chain of command (as Chief Engineer, I did one on the Weapons Officer's people after they had mistakenly attempted to strike down an SM-2ER from the launcher rail back into the magazine. No big deal, except that they forgot to remove its wings and fins first, and because of that, about $900K worth of AAW missile was lying in a heap on the deck of the forward Mk-10 missile house); maybe from outside the ship's lifelines, and could include a representative from the manufacturer, and other personnel with special knowledge that might be brought to bear.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Tamara]

Three things, in reverse order.

First of all, lucky for them that SM-2ER was not a rubber tipped Terrier. Dropped weapons are not fun!

Secondly, nice to hear that some Article 32's went that way, done by a "knowledgeable officer". My experience with them was they were usually assigned to the next hapless officer available, they were a burden, something that took you away from your normal work, and were to be gotten rid of as soon as possible. I did do mine precisely, at least in the writing, and while I did learn things back then, I wish I had known more then.

Finally, when NR-1 (as described in Dark Waters) was without a reactor (scrammed due to a circuit), underwater, and adrift, the OIC was faced with a restart of the reactor without following the laid out proper procedures (there wasn't time), something he had been taught was a career killer. In that case, though, he managed to survive it.

Given what you have said about the impossibility of being totally dead in the water for a USN carrier (and I'm sure that TPTB had written thousands of procedures of how to act), does that kind of Rickover mentality still exist? Do it how I said, deviate nowhere, or you're history?

[85 gt kid]

Wow Desert you could write a book on ship propulsion! I found it interesting about the size of Constellation"s powerplant being smaller but then again it makes sense. It's kinda like adding a turbo or supercharger to a car to get more power without either going to a bigger displacement or spending alot to make the power NA (atleast that's the way my brain interprets it).

This is one of those times when it's really better if you ask rather than offer an opinion.

I will chalk this up to the pain killers sir . Think before you speak right?

Actually speaking of Constellation's plant how big was it? I like making what-if ships and it would be cool to have the dimensions for the machinery.

Thanks again Sir!

[Gun Grape]

Very Informative.

Let me highlight the important parts.

Ships and tanks, as it turns out, are an awful lot alike.

Naval Officers are the equivalent of Tankers. DesertSWO= Tankie

Skivvies? Who needs those? I went in nekkid.

Desertswo=Tankie VERIFIED

[desertswo]

Very Informative.

Let me highlight the important parts.



Naval Officers are the equivalent of Tankers. DesertSWO= Tankie



Desertswo=Tankie VERIFIED

Hell, I've been called worse things! :tankie: Seriously, when my tanker buddy described the fuel storage, transfer and service system in an M1A1, I felt right at home. :hug:

[Albany Rifles]

Very Informative.

Let me highlight the important parts.



Naval Officers are the equivalent of Tankers. DesertSWO= Tankie



Desertswo=Tankie VERIFIED

Nice one Gunny.

So there are DATs....dumb ass tankers.

So does that make DesertSWO a DAS....dumb ass snipe?

:whome:

[Doktor]

Hell, I've been called worse things!

Like what? Yeller? :insane:

[desertswo]

Like what? Yeller? :insane:

Not to my face.

[tbm3fan]

Are you implying that someone would pop an ejection seat in the hangar on any CV/CVN? (Please tell me that’s not what you were implying!! Please! Please! Please!!! ) That would be your classic, “Wet clean-up on aisle five!” moment.

Just caught this.

Nope not implying that at all, but then if I said no one in their right mind would throw a burning flare into a locker full of flares, I would get proven wrong.

[85 gt kid]

Odd question but does anyone know the reason why the Hiddensee is at BB Cove? I see no reason why she's there and when i was there a few years ago she seemed out if place with the rest. Seems like she'll take a good chunk of cash away from the others.

[desertswo]

Just caught this.

Nope not implying that at all, but then if I said no one in their right mind would throw a burning flare into a locker full of flares, I would get proven wrong.

I feel so much better! :hug: I didn't think you were, but what you wrote was a little ambiguous so I was just asking for clarification in my whimsical, not to say, asshole-ish, Saints guy way. For others here tbm3fan and I have discovered via PM that we attended rival Catholic high schools/perennial football powerhouses :tank: in San Diego at the same time in the early-70s, although he's a couple of years senior to me. We even knew some of the same girls! LOL!!:whome: It's all about the love now! LOL!!! :hug:

Seriously though, I know from talking to Parachute Riggers (that's what they used to be called. I think they have some new name that has to do with "survival systems" or whatever), that the ejection system is something that is always, always, always disabled and tagged out when they bring an airplane down into the hangar bay. That 40mm charge that is the heart of those things can cause a world of hurt in too many ways to even remotely be lackadaisical with it. They are relatively simple but effective systems and work when you need them. Unfortunately, having also talked to guys who've "punched out" (two in Constellation during my time, and a couple of others, both Navy and Air Force, later), I believe there is almost no one who hasn't sustained some long term, maybe even lifetime injury to neck, back and/or knees due to the shock, and maybe even hitting something on the way out in a hurry. It's a pretty violent process, and necks in particular are pretty sensitive things relatively speaking.

[desertswo]

Odd question but does anyone know the reason why the Hiddensee is at BB Cove? I see no reason why she's there and when i was there a few years ago she seemed out if place with the rest. Seems like she'll take a good chunk of cash away from the others.

You see the same thing in San Diego in the form of a former Soviet Foxtrot-class submarine, hull number B-39, that is part of the San Diego Maritime Museum along with the "tall ship" Star of India, etc. It seems out of place at first until one considers its proximity (a nice stroll) to the USS Midway (CV 41) museum. While not part of the Midway museum program, its location gives that impression and makes for a nice juxtaposition of the one time, "hunter vs. hunted" situation that both of these ships experienced (roles flip-flopping frequently). It is highly likely even that they experienced this situation against each other given their respective home ports during their respective lifetimes which overlapped; Yakusuka for Midway, and Vladivostok for B-39.

Meanwhile, with Hiddensee being an example of a Taruntul 1-class missile corvette, it is an example of the menace that we "Cold Warriors" had to deal with during our careers. USS Joseph P. Kennedy (DD 850), also at Battleship Cove, would have certainly come in contact with the class of missile frigates that preceded Hiddensee/Tarantul 1. While that is not a direct relationship, it is close enough to give validity to a Cold War scenario in which Kennedy might have found itself. I believe that this is a wonderful opportunity to see, and understand, the nature of the conflict that so many millions of us, including the civilian populations of both nations, participated in. Sometimes, the Soviet Union got ahead; e.g. if those SS-N-2 Styx missiles did their job, Kennedy would be on the bottom before she even knew where Hiddensee was. Later ships, like any of the guided missile cruisers like the Leahy through Ticonderoga-class, never mind the FFG's of the Brooke and Oliver Hazard Perry-class, were another story. And the Arleigh Burke-class? As friends from New York City might say, "Fagettaboutit!" The thing is, Hiddensee and Kennedy are prime exemplars of the technological changes that occurred in WWII through the end of the Cold War and as such, belong in a place like Battleship Cove together, so the citizens of the US, and maybe other countries, can see just what it was like for their loved ones when they "went down to the sea in ships."

Sometimes, when we left port, it was against an enemy who we knew was "better" at that point in time, in a competition that swung like a pendulum, back and forth, with us taking the lead technologically/militarily, then the Soviets grabbing it back. Kennedy and Hiddensee are examples of those swings. Shouldn't that competition be high lighted in a place like Battleship Cove?

BTW, I lived for four years straight in Newport, Rhode Island, and off and on for another two before that. I am very familiar with the displays at Battleship Cove, most especially Massachusetts and Joseph P. Kennedy. I am wholly aware of their material condition, and as a guy whose career most often relied on his assessment of the material condition of ships, I tend to look a bit harder than even other naval officers at their condition. This is why I gave such an emphatic down check on your estimation of Massachusetts condition. It was not intended as a personal slight, and I hope you didn't take it that way. I just want you to understand, the way that Rusty and Dreadnought, as well as tbm3fan, Doc, and the others who are sort of neck deep in the museum ship business, already do, that there is a far cry from even a particularly well-preserved museum ship, and an operational fleet asset in terms of material readiness. It would leap up and smack you across the face if you ever have the opportunity to go to sea for a day or so in a USN warship. Anyway, just take the things I say as well intentioned, if somewhat strident. I am accustomed to making points emphatically and having people simply say, "Yes Sir!" in response. It's kind of a bad habit to get into, and an even harder one to conquer, and doesn't go over well in the civilian world. It's 11 years since I retired, and I am still learning that fact, so please, take it all with a grain of salt. R/Mike

[85 gt kid]

Huh I never thought of that and it makes sense now :). Who knows BB Cove probably had some sign explaining this very thing but after spending who knows how long in the Massachusetts and dealing with joint pain in my legs (something every 20YO dreams of :slap:) I must have missed the connecton but thank you for clarifying .

I took no offense to what you said (I may be from Mass but i'm not gung ho about it lol). I really meant that they're not falling apart bad but like I said it would take a lot to get them going again. I wish I was able to see what you see though instead of looking around like a newb. Unfortunately books only go so far.