New Carriers for RN - Training

[surfgun]

Link added

See the link added to my last.
post.SDSR: Royal Navy's capital fleet feels the axe

[Chunder]

Dread, I believe your working off of dated information. This week's MOD review indicated that the RN is going with the F-35C, so no more ski ramps for the RN. Cats and wires all the way.SDSR: Royal Navy's capital fleet feels the axe

Not too sure that a cat automatically means the removal of the ski jump. Although one wonders how it would fit given it probably means an angled flight deck.
2019 is a long way away - politics change. Building the Second is only a reflection that cancellation fees would cost more than building it...

[snapper]

Well the French cross train with USN so I would say both (American & French with the respective countries training aircraft, as the British have no carrier capable trainer aircraft at this time). If the RN is forced to sell one of their new carriers (due to budget issues), the chances are that the French would love to snatch it up (to have a reliable carrier). This may be one one of the reasons that the new British carriers are going with catapults and arresting gear (to make it more appealing to the French).

The French were initialy in with us (UK) on the planning phases of the new Carriers - they were going to make one with slightly different design details (bigger garlic cooling specs - steam catapult) but they decided not to go ahead. It is therefore highly unlikely they would buy HMS Prince of Wales as it would require their garlic storage modifications etc...

The second WILL go ahead as the MoD - partner and client in the programmes - is contratualy obliged (thanks to the previous Government) to pay out for both. This means we pay for nothing or for something, the latter being seen as better option. I very much doubt harriers with be withdrawn before 2014 earliest. We also forsee a first delivery of F-35Bs in 2015 and training period (though some limited training is already underway more as tests).

This will leave us with HMS Illustrious from 2015 - 2019 and no planes to fly from her... makes sense no?

[Kev 99]

The French were initialy in with us (UK) on the planning phases of the new Carriers - they were going to make one with slightly different design details (bigger garlic cooling specs - steam catapult) but they decided not to go ahead. It is therefore highly unlikely they would buy HMS Prince of Wales as it would require their garlic storage modifications etc...

The second WILL go ahead as the MoD - partner and client in the programmes - is contratualy obliged (thanks to the previous Government) to pay out for both. This means we pay for nothing or for something, the latter being seen as better option. I very much doubt harriers with be withdrawn before 2014 earliest. We also forsee a first delivery of F-35Bs in 2015 and training period (though some limited training is already underway more as tests).

This will leave us with HMS Illustrious from 2015 - 2019 and no planes to fly from her... makes sense no?

The SDSR says Harriers will go in 2011, and we;re not buying F35bs anymore we're going with the C varient.

[Dreadnought]

*According to the media, France and the Brits just signed a deal to share, not only forces but also Command of those forces.

At a moment when there's a growing consensus in Washington that U.S. defense dollars will level out or shrink, two of America's closest European allies have joined together to take on the issue of military spending in the midst of budget austerity.

In London on Tuesday the leaders of Britain and France agreed to a sweeping 50-year defense and security accord that covers a range of programs from nuclear cooperation and sharing aircraft carrier capability to a combined joint expeditionary force that could intervene far beyond Europe's borders.

Given the sometimes-contentious relations across the English Channel (a recent example being sharp clashes over the war in Iraq), Prime Minister David Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy emphasized at their joint press conference that their nuclear deterrents would remain independent, and that the agreement was not paving the way for a European army separate from NATO.

The two leaders have both mounted domestic austerity campaigns. In Britain, that included an 8 percent cut in the $59 billion defense budget; in France, a decision to cap military spending at $43 billion. The two countries have the world's third and fourth largest defense budgets and account for half of all military spending in the 27 nation European Union.

The effusive language used by the prime minister and president was keeping with a big moment:

"Today we open a new chapter in a long history of cooperation (going back to the Entente Cordiale at the beginning of the 20th century) between Britain and France," Cameron said.

"Britain and France, who have taken such a bold decision, who have pooled their capabilities at the service of one and the same policy is a historic event which, furthermore, is going to enable us to make savings," Sarkozy declared.

So far, there's been no official comment from the Obama administration, but the accord is expected to diminish concerns voiced by both Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during the British defense review last month.

And given the centuries-long cultural and historic differences between the neighbors, who were at war as recently as the early 1800s, a few dissenting voices inevitably surfaced.

The Associated Press quoted Bernard Jenkin, a member of the House of Commons and part of Cameron's Conservative party, as saying, "There is a long record of duplicity on the French part." And The New York Times quoted the head of the ultra-right French National Party, Marie Le Pen, renewing her attack on Sarkozy for reversing President Charles de Gaulle's 1966 break with the NATO military command, saying "It is clear that the objective of this accord is to shift our defense to Anglo-Saxon control, and obviously everyone will understand that behind Great Britain there is, of course, the American big brother."

Britain, France Sign Defense Pact | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

[USSWisconsin]

my opinion, pros and cons

I can see several benifits
Cost savings
restraint, one partner keeping the other from over reacting
the commitment forcing the partners to avoid conflicts with each other
Being able to field larger forces

of course there are disavantages
lack of flexibility
lack of effeciency in procurement when each partner wants the contract and needs their share of the business - whether they are the best contractor or not
compromises that satisfy neither side
slower response due to the same restraint factor above

[PubFather]

The whole Anglo-French cooperation seems to me to be not much more than smoke and mirrors - they are making some form of virtue out of a necessity. I'm utterly convinced that neither side is happy about the arrangement and as soon as it is economically expedient it will be forgotten...

I do find it amusing that it has taken an appalling budget disaster to make the MoD and the Navy see sense and commission a CATOBAR CVF... something that everyone has argued for years...

The last government has and will get lots of stick for its procurement - yet a vast amount of blame lies with the MoD and the top brass. There has been a consistent and unrealistic desire to emulate both the past and our American cousins in terms of the equipment, while insisting on independently developing items such radar (Sampson for eg) when better, developed systems were available off the shelf....

[Dreadnought]

Ex-Navy ship HMS Invincible in website auction

Invincible was decommissioned five years ago Continue reading the main story
Bring mothballed ship home plea
HMS Invincible has been put up for auction on a military disposal website.

Invincible is being sold by the the Disposal Services Authority, which says it has secured receipts of more than £900m for the MoD in the past 16 years.

The Barrow-built light aircraft carrier, which has an estimated metal weight of 10,000 tonnes, will "almost certainly" be sold for scrap, said naval expert Jon Rosamond.

HMS Invincible was decommissioned after 25 years' Royal Navy service in 2005.

Mr Rosamond, editor of Jane's Navy International, said: "It has been offered by the MoD for non-warlike purposes.

"Even if someone did want to take it on as a going concern it would never be used as an aircraft carrier again."

Work began on Invincible at Barrow in 1973 and the ship entered active service seven years later.

Prince Andrew was on board Invincible as a Sea King helicopter pilot during the Falklands War.

Bids for the ship, which is based in Portsmouth, have to be in by 5 January.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-11872743

*Better hope the Chinese dont see this add! They might have three carriers instead of two in the next decade.;)

[gunnut]

I would offer to buy that if I were Bill Gates or Carlos Slim or some other multi-billionaire with nothing else better to do with my money. If nothing, just to say that I own an aircraft carrier.

[Blademaster]

I would offer to buy that if I were Bill Gates or Carlos Slim or some other multi-billionaire with nothing else better to do with my money. If nothing, just to say that I own an aircraft carrier.

That's why you will never be a billionaire. :) Because you would be bankrupted soon.

[PubFather]

Always think that parking would be a problem with even a dinky carrier....