Destroyers - Fletcher Class

[Dreadnought]

USN usage of the 5"/51:

The 5"/51 caliber gun was mounted on:

USS Olympia (C-6) - replacing the original 10 5"/40 and 4 8"/35 guns;)
USS Chester (CL-1)
USS Birmingham (CL-2)
USS Salem (CL-3)
USS Florida (BB-30)
USS Utah (BB-31)
USS Wyoming (BB-32)
USS Arkansas (BB-33)
USS New York (BB-34)
USS Texas (BB-35)
USS Nevada (BB-36)
USS Oklahoma (BB-37)
USS Pennsylvania (BB-38)
USS Arizona (BB-39)
USS New Mexico (BB-40)
USS Mississippi (BB-41)
USS Idaho (BB-42)
USS Tennessee (BB-43)
USS California (BB-44)
USS Colorado (BB-45)
USS Maryland (BB-46)
USS West Virginia (BB-48)
USS Barracuda (SS-163)
USS Bass (SS-164)
USS Bonita (SS-165)
USS Langley (CV-1)
USS Long Island (CVE-1)
USS Sangamon (CVE-26)
USS Suwannee (CVE-27)
USS Chenango (CVE-28)
USS Santee (CVE-29)]
USS Charger (CVE-30)
Bogue class escort carriers
Tambor class submarines
USCG Tampa Class Cutters
USCG Lake Class Cutters
USCG Treasury Class Cutters
Banff class sloops

British service
In World War II a small number of these guns entered British service on board ships transferred under the Lend-lease arrangement. Some of these guns were then transferred to New Zealand and deployed ashore for coast defense.

The built-up gun consisted of a tube, full-length jacket, and single hoop with side swing Welin breech block and Smith-Asbury mechanism for a total weight of about 5 metric tons. Some Marks included a tapered liner. A 24.5-pound (11 kg) charge of smokeless powder gave a 50-pound (23 kg) projectile a velocity of 3,150 feet per second (960 m/s). Range was 9 statute miles (15 km) at the maximum elevation of 20 degrees. Useful life expectancy was 900 effective full charges (EFC) per liner.

*IMO at 3,150 feet per second, it would spell disaster to any surfaced German sub within its range. Their pressure hulls could doubtfully resist that kind of kinetic energy.

*This ofcoarse was also well before the 5"/38 SP (Single purpose surface combatant) & 5"/38 DP (Dual purpose surface and aerial combatants) mounts made their debut in 1934 for the SP mount, and then later for the DP mounts.

[Albany Rifles]

SS Stephen Hopkins Duel to the Death

A great story about the SS Stephen Hopkins and its ruin in with 2 German raiders and the fight put up by the Merchie crew and the Armed Guard detachment.

[Dreadnought]

SS Stephen Hopkins Duel to the Death

A great story about the SS Stephen Hopkins and its ruin in with 2 German raiders and the fight put up by the Merchie crew and the Armed Guard detachment.

Agreed, great story of the Armed Guard! And the Captain was very smart in positioning his ship so the stern mount gun could bear on target for a prolonged period of time.

[blidgepump]

National Security vs. Truth & Knowledge

"1 in 26 mariners serving aboard merchant ships in World WW II died in the line of duty, suffering a greater percentage of war-related deaths than all other U.S. services. Casualties were kept secret during the War to keep information about their success from the enemy and to attract and keep mariners at sea."

WIki leaks would of had a greater challenge in a defined spirited involvement as in WWII ??

[blidgepump]

Media participating in a national cause.

SS Stephen Hopkins Duel to the Death

A great story about the SS Stephen Hopkins and its ruin in with 2 German raiders and the fight put up by the Merchie crew and the Armed Guard detachment.

"Newspapers carried essentially the same story each week: "Two medium-sized Allied ships sunk in the Atlantic." In reality, the average for 1942 was 33 Allied ships sunk each week." Source USMM

Obvivous drain on resources when a ship is built, the material manufactured, seaman trained, and then sunk off the coast just hours after leaving harbor.

[blidgepump]

Mustard Gas in WWII ???

...... those would have been a nasty surprise.

In the line of discussion about a "nasty surprise" that was the feeling when I recently read about this incident.......

One of the most costly disasters of the war occurred in the Italian port of Bari, Dec. 2, 1943, during the invasion of Italy. A German air attack sank 17 Allied merchant ships with a loss of more than 1,000 lives. One of the five American ships destroyed that day was the SS John Harvey which carried a secret cargo of 100 tons of mustard gas bombs. When these exploded, hundreds of mariners, navy sailors and civilians were affected. Many died from the effects of the mustard gas.

[blidgepump]

You also had the US Navy Armed Guards aboard many mechant ships, Liberty Ships and so fourth. Their whole role was signalling and firing 5" deck guns as well as 3" AA guns and so fourth. .......;)

"For inexplicable reasons, the U.S. did not arm the ships, nor provide escorts or air cover, nor organize convoys along the Atlantic or Gulf Coasts or in the Caribbean. Fleet Admiral Ernest J. King was responsible for this inaction. The U.S. Government did not order a blackout of seacoast cities until June 1942, leaving ships silhouetted against the shoreline. Allied ships were "sitting ducks" for the well-armed U-Boats lurking in U.S. coastal waters. U.S. beaches soon became littered with bodies and burned-out ships." source USMM

Adm. King must of been very challenged, was he still command after Pearl Harbor?

[kato]

The opposite actually.
Pearl Harbour got Adm. Kimmel (CINC Pacific Fleet and CINCUS) sacked, Adm. King replaced him as COMINCH/CINCUS (Nimitz became CINC Pacific Fleet). By March 1942, he also became CNO and therefore sole commander of the Navy - for the rest of WW2. He abolished his own post (COMINCH) in Oct 1945 and remained commander of the Navy as CNO until he retired two months later.

Edit: ... on a side note, King didn't become Fleet Admiral until Dec 1944, when that rank was created for him. In 1940/41 he was CINC Atlantic Fleet (till Feb 41 as Rear Admiral, then as Admiral).

[Dreadnought]

Agreed, a few short clips from the sight:

U.S. Naval Armed Guard
In October 1941, the U. S. Navy organized an Armed Guard to provide gun crews for duty aboard the country's 1,375 merchant ships, just as it had done in World War I. The first Armed Guard were given their 3 weeks of training at Little Creek, Virginia and the first trainees and their officers were ready to sail in November 1941, when Congress repealed the Neutrality Act. By war's end, Armed Guard training bases were located throughout the country, and over 144,900 men served on over 6,236 American and Allied ships. Nearly 2,000 of these men gave their lives in defense of their country.

According to Armed Guard veteran William Schofield in "Eastward the Convoys," Navy gun crews aboard merchant ships. . . won literally thousands of decorations and commendations for bravery. At a heavy cost of life, they had delivered to foreign shores the millions of tons of supplies and munitions without which the war against the Axis Powers could not have been won."

Schofield quotes from a voyage report to Murmansk, which gives a good picture of the hazards faced by Armed Guard and their shipmates:

"We passed through heavy ice fields. . . At 1235, the Convoy Commodore's ships was torpedoed and sank in less than one minute. We were next in column, and we passed a number of survivors in the water, about 30 of them. [Merchant ships were forbidden to stop in convoy for rescue.]. . . Early in the morning, the convoy was attacked by 4 torpedo planes, but no ships were hit. At about 1300 hours, enemy surface craft were sighted. Our 4 accompanying destroyers immediately laid a smoke screen on the side from which they were approaching, and all merchant ships equipped with smoke pots lit them off. There were 3 German destroyers in the enemy group and they made 5 attempts to destroy our convoy but were driven off each time. During the battle, one of our ships was hit and sunk. Later the convoy passed though a thick ice pack and escaped in a heavy snowstorm."

Another voyage report from the Mediterranean:

"Our ship was part of the invasion force and went in close to the beach with the original landing. We were subjected to shelling from the enemy land positions. . . we had 27 actual bombings from enemy aircraft. The gun crew was on emergency watch for those 8 days, obtaining very little rest. . . several gunners were wounded. . . an enemy ME-109 came diving at our ship. The gunners filled her with 20-millimeter shells and the plane burst into flame, crashing into the ship's side and exploding. . . The ship took water rapidly. . . so we ran her onto the beach to avoid sinking. . . The Navy gun crew stayed at their battle stations, sleeping and eating there, so that the ship might be protected and the cargo that was so badly needed on the beach could be safely discharged."

In November 1942, near Trinidad, the SS Nathaniel Hawthorne was torpedoed, exploding and sinking within two minutes, taking 39 men down with her, among them Armed Guard officer Kenneth Muir. One of the 10 survivors saw Muir, his arm blown off at the shoulder, pushing 3 men to the stern and forcing them to jump off the blazing ship, then going back to rescue others.

Lt. Kenneth M. Willet, was the officer in charge of the Armed Guard unit on the SS Stephen Hopkins when she was attacked by the heavily armed German raiders Stier and Tannenfels.

Willet was hit several times by shrapnel as he commanded the gunners and helped man the 4-inch stern gun. The Stier was heavily damaged. Then the ammunition magazine exploded and Willet abandoned the gun to help release life rafts. The SS Stephen Hopkins sank stern first, taking Lt. Kenneth Willet with her. [Cadet Edwin O'Hara fired the last shells in the gun, sinking the Stier.]

U.S. Naval Armed Guard Casualties During World War II
World War II US Navy Armed Guard and World War II US Merchant Marine

[Dreadnought]

In the line of discussion about a "nasty surprise" that was the feeling when I recently read about this incident.......

One of the most costly disasters of the war occurred in the Italian port of Bari, Dec. 2, 1943, during the invasion of Italy. A German air attack sank 17 Allied merchant ships with a loss of more than 1,000 lives. One of the five American ships destroyed that day was the SS John Harvey which carried a secret cargo of 100 tons of mustard gas bombs. When these exploded, hundreds of mariners, navy sailors and civilians were affected. Many died from the effects of the mustard gas.

Blidge,
There is record of the German Army using chlorinated gas released from canisters against the Allied Army in WWI.
First World War.com - Battles - The Second Battle of Ypres, 1915

It's not hard to assume chemical warfare would have graduated towards mustard or other gases if they had sucess in prior battles with testing other gases first. Back then was much different then today. You have different Treaties now for gas or chemical warfare as well as the famous cluster munition treaties etc.

[kato]

There is record of the German Army using chlorinated gas released from canisters against the Allied Army in WWI.
First World War.com - Battles - The Second Battle of Ypres, 1915

That's WW1 though. Whole different thing. There is only one recorded use of chemical weapons in the European theater during WW2 - by Polish soldiers against Germany on Sep 8th 1939. There were a total of three accidents - the one above in Bari, a similar accident involving chemical munitions being transferred between depots and US aircraft bombing them in Lossa, Germany; and one incident in September 1939 in Poland that might have been a chemical IED.

Back then was much different then today. You have different Treaties now for gas or chemical warfare

Nope, we don't. The use of chemical weapons is outlawed since 1925 - Geneve Protocol on the Prohibition of the Use of Asphixating, Toxic and Similar Gases and Bacteriological Weapons in War. It's the same prohibition that's still around today, currently has 136 signatories including all UNSC members.
The only countries in WW2 tactically and strategically using chemical weapons were Japan (against China) and Italy (against Ethiopia). Both countries were signatories of above protocol. Everyone - literally - was stocking up though, throughout WW2 (and throughout the Cold War).

[USSWisconsin]

The deadlier "nerve gas" toxic agents were developed in the interwar period, thankfully these have never been widely used in battle, though some have reportedly been used against civilians in a few places. During the cold war, the US Honest John missile was equipped to carry a cluster type warhead with nerve gas bomblets, one of many examples.

Gas is not very effective against modern naval vessels, since they have NBC provisions to deal with it and can move out of the delivery cloud easily. A penetrating gas warhead could still inflict many causalties, but would probably not be as effective as a conventional warhead in destroying a ship. In the early 20th century, some battleship main gun projectiles were designed to deliver gas.

[Dreadnought]

Nope, we don't. The use of chemical weapons is outlawed since 1925 - Geneve Protocol on the Prohibition of the Use of Asphixating, Toxic and Similar Gases and Bacteriological Weapons in War. It's the same prohibition that's still around today, currently has 136 signatories including all UNSC members.
The only countries in WW2 tactically and strategically using chemical weapons were Japan (against China) and Italy (against Ethiopia). Both countries were signatories of above protocol. Everyone - literally - was stocking up though, throughout WW2 (and throughout the Cold War).

Disagree, Germany was using chemical gases when combined with oxygen to kill with in the concentration camps (Zyklon-B ). Although not "politically" labeled chemical weapons they were just that and yes they did use them tactically and strategically against the jews from many nations and killed millions. This was tested and used as a way to exterminate them beginning with.

Auschwitz-Birkenau, Nazi Germany's largest concentration and extermination camp facility, was located nearby the provincial Polish town of Oshwiecim in Galacia, and was established by order of Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler on 27 April 1940. Private diaries of Goebbels and Himmler unearthed from the secret Soviet archives show that Adolf Hitler personally ordered the mass extermination of the Jews during a meeting of Nazi German regional governors in the chancellery. As Goebbels wrote "With regards to the Jewish question, the Fuhrer decided to make a clean sweep ..."

http://www.auschwitz.dk/auschwitz.htm

IMO, It doesnt matter if they are aerial dropped, fired from mortars, guns etc or even used is sealed rooms such as the Germans, its qualifies as a chemical weapon with an intended purpose of killing by asphixiation or oxygen starvation, the effects are the very same as far as a human is concerned.

The containers above hold Zyklon-B pellets (hydrocyanic acid) that vaporize when exposed to air. Originally intended for commercial use as a disinfectant and an insecticide, the Nazis discovered through experimentation the gas could be used to kill humans.

The brand of Zyklon-B used by the Nazis contained substances which gave the pellets a blue appearance and left blue stains inside gas chambers which can still be seen today in chambers that were left intact.

During the killing process, prisoners at Auschwitz and other killing centers were forced into the air-tight chambers that had been disguised by the Nazis to look like shower rooms. The Zyklon pellets were then dumped into the chambers via special air shafts or openings in the ceiling.

The pellets would then vaporize, giving off a noticeable bitter almond odor. Upon being breathed in, the vapors combined with red blood cells, depriving the human body of vital oxygen, causing unconsciousness, and then death through oxygen starvation.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...t/h-zyklon.htm

Iraq/Iran War (found to be high quality Mustard gas by the UN team that tested it)
History of Iran: Chemical Warfare In The Iran-Iraq War 1980-1988

Iraqi chemical attacks on the Kurds and others: Mustard, Tabun,Sarin and at points VX.
Chemical Weapons Programs - Iraq Special Weapons Facilities

Iraqi Chemical weapons stash 2005
Iraqi Chemical Stash Uncovered - washingtonpost.com


Progress of destruction
By October 28, 2010, a total of 43,131 metric tons or 60.58% of all declared chemical weapons had been destroyed including all Class 3 declared chemicals. More than 45% (3.95 million) chemical munitions and containers have been destroyed.[8] (Treaty confirmed destruction totals often lag behind state-declared totals.) Only about 50% of countries had passed the required legislation to outlaw participation in chemical weapons production.[9]

Three state parties, Albania (included 16,678 kilograms of mustard agent, lewisite, adamsite, and chloroacetophenone),[10] an unspecified state party[10] (widely believed to be South Korea)[11] and India[11] already have completed the destruction of their complete stockpiles. Russia and the United States, which declared the largest amounts of chemical weapons are in the progress of destruction and had processed 48% and 75% of their respective stockpiles.[5] The deadline set for both countries of April 2012 however will not be reached.[5] Libya (which has submitted its destruction plans) and Iraq have yet to start destruction. Japan and China are preparing the destruction of chemical weapons abandoned by Japan in China by means of mobile destruction units.[12]


Possibilities in SREBRENICA:
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/re...tm#P621_140482

*As you can see once one is found to produce, so are several others. So in reality many countries could be said to posses Chemical weapons as late as present time now.

The guidelines:

Controlled substances
The convention distinguishes three classes of controlled substance,[21] chemicals which can either be used as weapons themselves or used in the manufacture of weapons. The classification is based on the quantities of the substance produced commercially for legitimate purposes. Each class is split into Part A, which are chemicals that can be used directly as weapons, and Part B which are chemicals useful in the manufacture of chemical weapons.

Schedule 1 chemicals have few, or no uses outside of chemical weapons. These may be produced or used for research, medical, pharmaceutical or chemical weapon defence testing purposes but production above 100 grams per year must be declared to the OPCW. A country is limited to possessing a maximum of 1 tonne of these materials. Examples are mustard and nerve agents, and substances which are solely used as precursor chemicals in their manufacture. A few of these chemicals have very small scale non-military applications, for example minute quantities of nitrogen mustard are used to treat certain cancers.

Schedule 2 chemicals have legitimate small-scale applications. Manufacture must be declared and there are restrictions on export to countries which are not CWC signatories. An example is thiodiglycol which can be used in the manufacture of mustard agents, but is also used as a solvent in inks.

Schedule 3 chemicals have large-scale uses apart from chemical weapons. Plants which manufacture more than 30 tonnes per year must be declared and can be inspected, and there are restrictions on export to countries which are not CWC signatories. Examples of these substances are phosgene, which has been used as a chemical weapon but which is also a precursor in the manufacture of many legitimate organic compounds and triethanolamine, used in the manufacture of nitrogen mustard but also commonly used in toiletries and detergents.
The treaty also deals with carbon compounds called in the treaty Discrete organic chemicals.[22] These are any carbon compounds apart from long chain polymers, oxides, sulfides and metal carbonates, such as organophosphates. The OPCW must be informed of, and can inspect, any plant producing (or expecting to produce) more than 200 tonnes per year, or 30 tonnes if the chemical contains phosphorus, sulfur or fluorine, unless the plant solely produces explosives or hydrocarbons

[kato]

I wouldn't call what happened in the concentration camps "warfare" in any way, nor was Zyklon-B weaponized for warfare. Both would be requirements in my mind to call Zyklon-B a chemical weapon.
It was extermination of the worst kind, pure slaughter. Should know, half of my grandmother's relatives died in Auschwitz and Majdanek. Btw, i'd also classify the Japanese use in Wuhan similarly.

A "weapon" in the military context is a means of warfare. Chemical warfare has different purposes than extermination. The primary purpose, at least since the invention of defense mechanisms against it during WW1, is for the most part not to kill, but to tie down. Both in area denial (Polish use in WW2 falls in that category) and as a tactical weapon to tie down opposing forces before an immediate attack.

As for Bosnia, at least in the zones the NBC battalion i later served in was responsible for there was no use of chemical weapons. The guys we had down there were pretty focused on teaching us awareness of minefields later on though.

[Albany Rifles]

What about the use of tear gas by the USMC in the Central PAcific?

How do you characterize that?